Coal, for use on steam hauled heritage railways - merged posts

[whole diary]

[TonyK]

I am shocked that that natural gas with about 1% hydrogen is called green. Not that keen on the ecocoal, but as you point out 50% is a very considerable improvement on 1%.

A few years ago it was proposed that newly built houses could not be gas heated, and I have heard the suggestion that a loophole has been found. Gas boilers might be allowed if marked "hydrogen ready" the percentage of hydrogen not being stated. 1% perhaps ?

I was shocked that Greenpeace is selling gas at all, but telling everyone to stop using gas is an expensive business, so I guess they need the cash.

Gas boilers in my childhood were not as plentiful as now, but burned 50% hydrogen. Most converted to natural gas easily, and modern science being what it is, I am sure that making a boiler that could work on natural gas or hydrogen with minimal work would be easy. I would imagine that they won't be tested for that for many years anyway. The country has a national lack of manufacturing resources for the air-source heaters that will be needed, and an even bigger deficit of accredited installers.

[grahame]

Back to the original topic, and how to fire steam engines when there's no coal.   All this talk of alternatives - is it beyond the wit of man person to make heat-eggs which are induction charged overnight, then put into the firebox prior to service, switched on via WiFi and get very hot just like coal does to boil the water.  Difference being that the cool down at the end of the day and get put back into the induction charger overnight and so on.

[johnneyw]

But will there be no coal?  Is not one of the benefits of making the great majority of future transportation carbon neutral that it allows for limited fossil fuel heritage technologies such a steam power to continue?  Should not the question really be, how can a modest amount of coal be economically mined to supply this sector?  Perhaps a productive heritage mine?
You can use the same rationale with vintage motor cars although synthetic fuel would probably be easier to produce?

[broadgage]

There wont be "no coal" for many years yet.
Anthracite and coal derived smokeless patent fuels are still available, with no proposed bans.
House coal can still be sold in bulk to industrial  users which includes heritage railways.

I am in favour of reducing coal consumption as it is a carbon intensive fuel.
Coal burning steam engines are inherently un-green, and heritage railways should try to be as green as possible.

[johnneyw]

I am in favour of reducing coal consumption as it is a carbon intensive fuel.
Coal burning steam engines are inherently un-green, and heritage railways should try to be as green as possible.

Be green as possible by all means but heritage steam is deeply linked with coal.  The amount needed for heritage lines would be an environmental irrelevance in an otherwise future post fossil fuel world.  The educational value as well as the heritage interest of coal powered steam traction would be diluted to a very detrimental degree without the presence of the small amount of coal it requires. 

[Witham Bobby]

A little internet search reveals that there are at present 184 coal-fired power stations under construction in China.  I don't see how the "decarbonisation" (a totally impossible target and almost certainly prohibitively expensive) that is now stated Government policy for the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) is going to make all that much difference to the atmosphere.  It'll just make us all colder, less free, and less prosperous

[broadgage]

The carbon emissions of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) are indeed a small part of the world total.
We should IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) still do our bit to reduce such emissions, if everyone said "my bit is too small to worry about" than there would be no hope for the climate.

China has a very poor record on the environment.

[Bmblbzzz]

But will there be no coal?  Is not one of the benefits of making the great majority of future transportation carbon neutral that it allows for limited fossil fuel heritage technologies such a steam power to continue?  Should not the question really be, how can a modest amount of coal be economically mined to supply this sector?  Perhaps a productive heritage mine?
You can use the same rationale with vintage motor cars although synthetic fuel would probably be easier to produce?

The price of the heritage coal could be subsidised by tourists, who would pay for the chance to dress up in period costume and swing a pick axe till they've filled a burlap sack. They could then buy heritage fodder to feed the pit ponies and finally enjoy a genuine Edwardian pitman's dinner. 

[broadgage]

Is heritage fodder for pit ponies any different from modern fodder ?

[TaplowGreen]

A little internet search reveals that there are at present 184 coal-fired power stations under construction in China.  I don't see how the "decarbonisation" (a totally impossible target and almost certainly prohibitively expensive) that is now stated Government policy for the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) is going to make all that much difference to the atmosphere.  It'll just make us all colder, less free, and less prosperous

Exactly, one of the reasons why it's so baffling that Extinction Rebellion, Greta etc don't spend more time protesting in China.

[TonyK]

A little internet search reveals that there are at present 184 coal-fired power stations under construction in China.  I don't see how the "decarbonisation" (a totally impossible target and almost certainly prohibitively expensive) that is now stated Government policy for the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) is going to make all that much difference to the atmosphere.  It'll just make us all colder, less free, and less prosperous

Exactly, one of the reasons why it's so baffling that Extinction Rebellion, Greta etc don't spend more time protesting in China.

Brave people died for less in our own bedrock of democracy, in the olden days. It could be that China has a more robust policy towards who speaks out loudly than our own Albion, this Septic Isle, and more secure borders to boot. You could also ask why critics of Islam don't spend more time protesting in Teheran, why more foreigners don't stage anti-gun rallies in the southern states of the USA, and why Aung San Suu Kyi had such a bad time after a former US navy seal swam to her home to talk to her. China is building more coal power stations, but also furnishes the rest of the world with cheap renewable energy stuff, and will probably be "carbon neutral" long before we and the US are. At what cost, I couldn't begin to imagine. I view it as a balance to our own green narrative, and see it as a new imperialism feeding off our need to export pollution rather than labour cost, but I really know bugger all in the grand scheme of things.

Speaking of borders, I realise that I am bordering on the zone of international politics, so shall take a step backwards. I don't like a lot of what the Chinese state is doing. I am no apologist, but I am not convinced that our own media is in possession of, or sharing, all of the facts. As it happens, I have Chinese friends (and currently house guests) who might not swallow the whole party line, but whom I would not embarrass (or endanger) by discussion of their differences. I'll let you know when they are safely home, and we can discuss it then if anyone wants to. Meanwhile...

Health services are not free in China, which surprised me. Traditional medicine is not the preferred option for most people there these days. They don't all buy bats in wet markets, which didn't surprise me, and pangolins are protected by law. Until relatively recently, I didn't know that there were pangolins, so I was mildly surprised. I took one friend to see GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) in action - she asked how fast the trains travelled at. I told her, proudly, that they do up to 125 mph, or about 200 kph. She asked if we also have any high speed trains.

[broadgage]

A little internet search reveals that there are at present 184 coal-fired power stations under construction in China.  I don't see how the "decarbonisation" (a totally impossible target and almost certainly prohibitively expensive) that is now stated Government policy for the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) is going to make all that much difference to the atmosphere.  It'll just make us all colder, less free, and less prosperous

Exactly, one of the reasons why it's so baffling that Extinction Rebellion, Greta etc don't spend more time protesting in China.

I suspect that Greta and others expressing similar views in China would be arrested as "spies" or as "CIA^▸ (Central Intelligence Agency (USA)) agents" or might simply vanish.
However we in the free world should not lower ourselves to the standards prevailing in china.

I avoid, so far as is possible, the purchase of chinese goods due to that countries poor record on the enviroment and on human rights.

[ellendune]

However we in the free world ......

At the moment - however we must always be on our guard. 

[Bmblbzzz]

I doubt if Greta would be given a visa to enter China.

[TaplowGreen]

I doubt if Greta would be given a visa to enter China.

Much longer, CO2 generating flight than last time for the crew to bring her "zero carbon" yacht back afterwards too!