Cardiff - Taunton / Cardiff - Portsmouth and their implications for Brighton services

[whole diary]

[Chris from Nailsea]

(PS I am aware that the thread has wandered quite quickly from the title - maybe a change needed?)

Thanks for your suggestion, trainer: I've now moved this topic from 'Bristol Commuters' to here in 'Looking Forward' and renamed it as above - hope this helps! 

[Chris from Nailsea]

A sad example of the implications for Cardiff - Portsmouth services of an incident on the Brighton line, from First Great Western JourneyCheck:

08:59 Brighton to Great Malvern due 14:35
This train will be delayed at Westbury. This train will be started from Westbury. This train will no longer call at Brighton, Hove, Shoreham-By-Sea, Worthing, Barnham, Chichester, Havant, Cosham, Fareham, Southampton Central, Romsey, Salisbury and Warminster. This is due to a person hit by a train.
Message Received: 27/05/2013 11:34

11:00 Brighton to Portsmouth Harbour due 12:03
This train is being delayed from Brighton. This is due to a person hit by a train.
Message Received: 27/05/2013 11:30

11:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour due 14:54
This train will be terminated at Westbury. This train will no longer call at Warminster, Salisbury, Romsey, Southampton Central, Fareham, Cosham, Fratton, Portsmouth & Southsea and Portsmouth Harbour. This is due to a person hit by a train earlier.
Message Received: 27/05/2013 10:46

[paul7575]

Autumn apparently.

Checking again, (I didn't get all the way down the page) it is from Dec 2014 for 18 months...

Paul

[paul7575]

Indeed ... how far does the service have to go?   I'm not sure if it's still the case, but I understand there are / were some refreshed third rail units (class 508?) parked up at Eastleigh and available for hire. 

I think they are all beyond re-use in fact.  The only 508 vehicles units that have left the works so far have gone for use as training aids at the fire service college...  Their future re-use with LO is being referred to here and there but I take that with a pinch of salt...

However, do what was done to the local services that call at Dean and Dunbridge and transfer the service to South West Trains, and run them from their Southampton Depot and you've mitigated the problem somewhat. 

The only logical alternative, if split into DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)/EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) sections, is to have Southern run the service, probably using 377s made available following the Thameslink re-organisation.  However this is academic because DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) wish to keep the through service. 

SWT^▸ (South West Trains)'s Southampton (Northam) depot is only set up and organised for deep maintenance of the entire Desiro fleet, and a very small amount of overnight berthing of Desiros - most of which stable at other depots.

Paul

[Rhydgaled]

Are the Portsmouth - Cardiff services often busy into/out of Portsmouth or are the vast majority of the capacity issues between Southampton and Cardiff? Do the franchise-required Brightons have to run at certain times?

If the answer to the first questions is 'they aren't that busy' and the second 'no' then could you run 4-car Southampton - Cardiff (maybe reduced to every two hours between Bristol and Cardiff when electrification is done if a Cardiff - Bath EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) service is introduced) with 2 coaches detaching for Brighton a few times a day?

Moving the Brighton services to a different time might allow them to run behind a Southern service so most passengers not going beyond Southampton will board the Southern train instead meaning 2-car 158 shouldn't be that busy.

[Network SouthEast]

Are the Portsmouth - Cardiff services often busy into/out of Portsmouth or are the vast majority of the capacity issues between Southampton and Cardiff? Do the franchise-required Brightons have to run at certain times?

If the answer to the first questions is 'they aren't that busy' and the second 'no' then could you run 4-car Southampton - Cardiff (maybe reduced to every two hours between Bristol and Cardiff when electrification is done if a Cardiff - Bath EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) service is introduced) with 2 coaches detaching for Brighton a few times a day?

Moving the Brighton services to a different time might allow them to run behind a Southern service so most passengers not going beyond Southampton will board the Southern train instead meaning 2-car 158 shouldn't be that busy.

The services at the Portsmouth end of the line are busy in the sense that they are the only fast services to Southampton, and for places like Fareham and Cosham there is a half hour gap from Portsmouth in service from the previous Waterloo via Eastleigh service. Whilst the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services aren't full to the brim leaving Portsmouth, they still have good patronage.

[JayMac]

Do the franchise-required Brightons have to run at certain times?

There's little in the way of time requirements for the Southampton-Brighton services, except that two services in each direction must be provided between 0630-1830 Mon-Sat. On Sundays it's four services between 0930-2230 arriving Brighton and three services between 1000-1800 departing Brighton

What FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have to provide between Southampton and Brighton is laid out in the Service Level Commitment of the franchise:

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4113/fgwcommitment2b.pdf#page=79

[ellendune]

What FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have to provide between Southampton and Brighton is laid out in the Service Level Commitment of the franchise:

Of course in the franchise extension being negotiated - this could be negotiated out in order to use the additional rolling stock elsewhere

[Southern Stag]

But it would seem unlikely because the Brighton service were still going to be part of the now aborted new franchise. The consultation did suggest getting rid of them but it seems the feedback suggested they should stay, and why not if they're popular and well used.

[JayMac]

.... and a nice little ORCATS^▸ (Operational Research Computerised Allocation of Tickets to Services) earner for the franchisee.

[Rhydgaled]

Are the Portsmouth - Cardiff services often busy into/out of Portsmouth or are the vast majority of the capacity issues between Southampton and Cardiff? Do the franchise-required Brightons have to run at certain times?

If the answer to the first questions is 'they aren't that busy' and the second 'no' then could you run 4-car Southampton - Cardiff (maybe reduced to every two hours between Bristol and Cardiff when electrification is done if a Cardiff - Bath EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) service is introduced) with 2 coaches detaching for Brighton a few times a day?

Moving the Brighton services to a different time might allow them to run behind a Southern service so most passengers not going beyond Southampton will board the Southern train instead meaning 2-car 158 shouldn't be that busy.

The services at the Portsmouth end of the line are busy in the sense that they are the only fast services to Southampton, and for places like Fareham and Cosham there is a half hour gap from Portsmouth in service from the previous Waterloo via Eastleigh service. Whilst the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services aren't full to the brim leaving Portsmouth, they still have good patronage.

You couldn't reduce them to 2-car at any point without causing overcrowding then?

[Network SouthEast]

I don't live down that way anymore, but I think anything less than 3-car would cause an uproar. The majority of other trains in the Portsmouth area are at least three or four car, whilst this is arguably because that is the shortest of the rolling stock available to SWT^▸ (South West Trains) and Southern, it does reflect the high patronage in the area. Cosham for example, is just an ordinary station in a suburb, yet has twice the patronage of what some might consider more important stations such as Westbury!

[anthony215]

Posted over on wnxx that DVT^‡(resolve) 82309  has arrived at Barton hill for training crews ready for May when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are going to put a loco hauled set on the service between Cardiff & Bristol TM^‡(resolve)  during the peaks.

Traction is expected to be a class 67 & DVT with some mark 3's

The person who has posted this is a member of FGW staff  who is in the know and is normally prettty much on the ball.

Where the mark3 carriages are comming from I do not know although I wouldnt be too surprised if these were the 3 spare carriages from ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) unless Chiltern cant get some refreshed before May.

[JayMac]

And could it not equally be possible that the Arriva UK^▸ (United Kingdom) owned DVT^‡(resolve) 82309 is at Arriva UK owned (subsidiary LNWR^▸ (London North Western Railway) Co. Ltd) Barton Hill for maintenance?

How much crew training can be done on a static vehicle in a depot?

Be nice though if it is there for introduction into passenger service from May. A tender was issued by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) in April 2013 for loco hauled or alternative passenger rolling stock for the Cardiff-Taunton route. That contract's duration is 31 months from 9th December 2014. I haven't seen a variation or different tender starting in May.

It doesn't appear that FGW have made a public tender for rolling stock from May 2014.

[anthony215]

Could be what it is however  there is now some conflicting reports.

So I think it is going to be best to assume the worst case scenario and we wont be getting a loco hauled rake although we can keep out fingers crossed.