Derailment at Quorn Great Central Railway on 27 April 2013

[whole diary]

[SandTEngineer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr5EztEPJS8 

Nothing on the RAIB^▸ (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) website yet.  No speculation as to cause please

[trainer]

Oh dear! 

Not everyone is as restrained with the pointing fingers as we are here.

[Electric train]

The catch points seemed to function within their correct parameters

[JayMac]

Are they not trap points rather than catch points?

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

Yes, I think they are indeed trap points.  Trap points basically prevent trains joining a running line from a subsidiary siding or loop etc, and are usually just beyond a signal.  So trains generally run through them forwards.

Catch points wre used to safely derail wagons etc running backwards down a gradient - important when there were lots of loose coupled (ie unbraked) freight trains running about, but less so now.

I think there was a derailment involving a train in a possession a few years ago on the steep gradient between Exeter St Davids and Exeter Central on some catch points, but the circumstances were atypical of what normally happens with catch points.

[bobm]

I think there was a derailment involving a train in a possession a few years ago on the steep gradient between Exeter St Davids and Exeter Central on some catch points, but the circumstances were atypical of what normally happens with catch points.

Indeed there was - November 2011
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=9838.0

[Electric train]

Are they not trap points rather than catch points?

To an E & P engineer what ever they are call they did what they were placed there to do ....... to catch a train going somewhere it wasn't meant to by trapping it ............

........ pedantic lot  .......... ............... 

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

I think what BNM and myself were gently pointing out is that "trap points" and "catch points" are different in their function.  So it just helps if people understand this, we are all here to learn something occasionally....

[inspector_blakey]

In general terms:

• trap points derail a movement that is proceeding without authority in the right direction, such as a train passing a signal at danger in error and heading out onto a main line, or perhaps into a single line section;
• catch points derail a movement that is proceeding without authority in the wrong direction, the classic example of this being when goods trains didn't have automatic brakes all the way through catch points would be placed at the bottom o a rising gradient to "catch" and derail any wagons that broke loose and started running back down the hill.

Incidentally, please don't take any of that to imply that I think the movement in the video was necessarily proceeding without authority; it's possible that the signaller had, for some reason, authorized a movement past a signal at danger. On the main line there are fifteen different situations when this might legitimately be authorized.

[Red Squirrel]

"The beginning of wisdom is when you call something by its proper name"
- Chinese proverb

All these years I've been using the terms interchangeably. Thanks to I_B, S&TE etc for pointing out the distinction.

I am very impressed by the restraint shown here in pointing fingers. All I can say is (barmy fares systems aside) I am very happy to be a passenger rather than being in any way responsible for the safe running of a railway!

[JayMac]

I am very happy to be a passenger rather than being in any way responsible for the safe running of a railway!

I trust you remain safe at all times when you are a pedestrian? Reason I ask is because every time I see your avatar I can't help but think of Tufty. 

[thetrout]

It could have been much, much worse...

(Ok, that wasn't caused by Trap or Catch points... But...)

[Red Squirrel]

....every time I see your avatar I can't help but think of Tufty. 

I am very, very good at crossing roads. That's all I'm going to say on that matter.

It could have been much, much worse...
(Ok, that wasn't caused by Trap or Catch points... But...)

Indeed. In other less august fora, there has been talk of 'playing trains' - implying amateurism. Quintinshill and Harrow are there to remind us that even professionals are capable of having a bad day.

One of the more poignant facts about Harrow was that there were a lot of British Railways staff on the commuter train involved. Realising that this was going to take a lot of sorting out, they climbed out of the wreckage and walked to work...

[inspector_blakey]

Indeed. In other less august fora, there has been talk of 'playing trains' - implying amateurism. Quintinshill and Harrow are there to remind us that even professionals are capable of having a bad day.

Very well said; I have a foot in both camps, as the day job involves working on the big railway and I'm often to be found on a heritage line on days off (one-dimensional, me...?!). What's abundantly clear to me is that, regardless of how well you train and monitor people, and how many mechanical, electrical or rules-based safeguards are in place, every now and again human errors happen and cause operating incidents. A quick glance at the RAIB^▸ (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) website will demonstrate the sorts of things that happen, and also that they occur both on the main line and on heritage lines. An incident like this occurring doesn't necessarily imply a systematic lack of professionalism or poor standards of operation.

I'm not sure if we'll see a full RAIB report into the incident shown in the video: although it's most definitely reportable to the RAIB, that doesn't mean they will necessarily choose to investigate formally. I guess we'll know in the next month or so if they do plan to carry out an investigation.

[Electric train]

Indeed. In other less august fora, there has been talk of 'playing trains' - implying amateurism. Quintinshill and Harrow are there to remind us that even professionals are capable of having a bad day.

Very well said; I have a foot in both camps, as the day job involves working on the big railway and I'm often to be found on a heritage line on days off (one-dimensional, me...?!). What's abundantly clear to me is that, regardless of how well you train and monitor people, and how many mechanical, electrical or rules-based safeguards are in place, every now and again human errors happen and cause operating incidents. A quick glance at the RAIB^▸ (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) website will demonstrate the sorts of things that happen, and also that they occur both on the main line and on heritage lines. An incident like this occurring doesn't necessarily imply a systematic lack of professionalism or poor standards of operation.

I agree, there are only so many mechanical / electrical measures you can put in place the railways are still operated by an organic mechanism a Mk 1 human

I'm not sure if we'll see a full RAIB report into the incident shown in the video: although it's most definitely reportable to the RAIB, that doesn't mean they will necessarily choose to investigate formally. I guess we'll know in the next month or so if they do plan to carry out an investigation.

RAIB may well accept the Railways own report on the incident especially as no one injured, it did not involve an in-service passenger train, safety of passenger trains was not effected.