Sanity check, please! Melksham to London, and possible splits

[whole diary]

[grahame]

This coming week I'm making various trips from Melksham to Farnborough (Main) and also to London.   There's a weekly season ticket at 243 pounds - Melksham to London Terminals, but the terms and conditions say valid via anything that can be done on one ticket, and there's a split needed from Melksham to Farnborough Main no matter how I do it.   However, there's also a 243 pound Trowbridge to London terminals any route, and a single Trowbridge to London ticket via Salisbury (passing Farnborough) available.

Can I buy a Trowbridge season and use that, considering that Trowbridge via Melksham is a valid London route.   Then catch the 06:38 and us a partial return leg of the season to Trowbridge, stay on the train there and do my outward partial to Farnborough?  I think I gain the extra route buying a Trowbridge ticket - but what do I loose, considering they're the same price?   As I'll be using the train from and to Melksham every day, how do I get my journeys registered in Melksham's annual figures?

[grahame]

As a follow up .. I have just noticed that a Dilton Marsh ticket is better value - 231.70 and as far as I can see covers the same routes. Now if I was "split ticketing" I would have to be on a train that called at the split points ... but using a season going through there, it's not multiple tickets but rather the same ticket, so I can use a train from Salisbury to Westbury in the evening that does not call there - have I read that right?  Or do I need to get one that stops?  Or could stop? ... do I have to ask the morning train to stop so that I can complete my outward journey before starting my return journey, even though I have no intention of getting off the train?  All this seems daft ... but I want to make sure I understand the rules ahead of time in deciding which product I need!

[JayMac]

If you want (and can) do all your trips via Salisbury to both Farnborough (Main) and London then there is a 7 day Season from Shirehampton* to London Terminals (via Salisbury) for ^185.70.

Add to that a 7 day Season from Melksham to Trowbridge for ^18.70 or individual Anytime Day Returns if you are only making 4 or less journeys. ^4.10 each.


*in this case it has to Shirehampton and not another Severn Beach Line station. Shirehampton is cheaper than the rest for a 7 day season.

[thetrout]

If you want (and can) do all your trips via Salisbury to both Farnborough (Main) and London then there is a 7 day Season from Shirehampton* to London Terminals (via Salisbury) for ^185.70.

Bedminster is cheaper for a via Salisbury season... At ^181.80

However, Grahame, may I suggest a Warminster to London any permitted route season? Valid into both Paddington AND Waterloo. So Melksham and Farnborough Main permitted routes for ^231.90; 20p more than the Dilton Marsh season and pretty much if not all trains between Westbury and Salisbury call at Warminster

[JayMac]

Bedminster is cheaper for a via Salisbury season... At ^181.80

Well spotted! I've also just found that Patchway, Filton Abbey Wood, Stapleton Raod and Lawrence Hill are all also ^181.80

[basset44]

Hi the Trout and BNM

What am I missing here when I use the mixing desk for weekly I get a fare of 221.90 from bedminster to London terminals via Salisbury.

Just wanted to follow and learn

Basset

[thetrout]

Hi Basset44

No trouble.

Try this link: http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/seasonticket/search

thetrout

[JayMac]

FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s booking engine doesn't appear to have the via Salisbury Season Tickets available, even if you enter 'via Salisbury'. 

That said, I cant find a ^221.90 Bedminster-London Terminals 7 Day Season at all. 

Back to grahame's question about using Dilton Marsh as the origin station for the Season. Or thetrout's suggestion of Warminster. Whilst you can buy a Season marked 'Any Permitted' from either of these stations you need to know the appropriate Routeing Points and whether the 'fares check rule' is satisfied.

The appropriate Routeing Points for Warminster/Dilton Marsh are Westbury and Salisbury. The 'fares check rule' states that a route is permitted via a Routeing Point if the fare from the origin to destination is not less than the fare from the Routeing Point to destination. In this case Westbury fails the 'fares check rule' as the Westbury - London Terminals 7 Day Season (Any Permitted) is more expensive than the 7 Day Seasons (Any Permitted) from both Warminster and Dilton Marsh. That just leaves Salisbury as an appropriate Routeing Point.

That's a rather technical analysis of what's permitted on paper. However it is a little odd that there is an 'Any Permitted' 7 Day Season from Dilton Marsh/Warminster and a separate, cheaper one 'Via Salisbury'. Why offer the 'Any Permitted' when Westbury fails the 'fares check rule' for determining permitted Routeing Points? Leaving you with only Salisbury as a valid Routeing Point.

There's no easement I can see to allow travel via Westbury on the 'Any Permitted' 7 Day Season from Warminster/Dilton Marsh. However, in practice I think you'd be highly unlikely to be pulled up for being on an invalid route if you chose to travel via Westbury. Routeing Guide knowledge is patchy amongst on train staff and it does seem reasonable to be allowed to travel via Westbury on an 'Any Permitted' ticket, particularly when there is a cheaper 'Via Salisbury' option.

Whether you decide grahame to do so is entirely your decision. First line of defence would be the fact that if you were travelling on Anytime or Off Peak 'Any Permitted' tickets from Warminster/Dilton Marsh - London Terminals rather than the Season, they would pass the 'fares check rule' and permit travel via Westbury. Perverse that, by following the rules to the letter, the 'Any Permitted' Season doesn't allow travel via Westbury.

Well done grahame and the trout. You taxed my brain with yet another bonkers fares anomaly. 

[trainer]

It seems that in the matter of fares on the British rail network 'there ain't no Sanity Clause' (Chico Marx)

[Brucey]

Now if I was "split ticketing" I would have to be on a train that called at the split points ... but using a season going through there, it's not multiple tickets but rather the same ticket, so I can use a train from Salisbury to Westbury in the evening that does not call there - have I read that right?  Or do I need to get one that stops?  Or could stop? ... do I have to ask the morning train to stop so that I can complete my outward journey before starting my return journey, even though I have no intention of getting off the train?  All this seems daft ... but I want to make sure I understand the rules ahead of time in deciding which product I need!

It has been confirmed to me by First Great Western, Southern and South West Trains that a train does NOT need to call at the origin station in order to change routes and/or start a new journey on the same season ticket.  E.g. for me Bedhampton to London is valid both ways out of Bedhampton, so I often use it passing through the station on a service that does not call at Bedhampton.

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) also confirmed that if I "choose" my destination as Hayes & Harlington (as it is a Z1-6 Travelcard), I can use it via. Reading.  They then went onto confirm that it IS valid on a non-stop Reading to Paddington service, using it as an outboundary ticket to Hayes then a Travelcard from there onwards.

It is worth getting customer services to answer your query so you have a printout to show any members of staff who are not clear about the routes.

A weekly Bedhampton to Z1-6 ticket is ^129.60 and is valid via. Salisbury/Reading, I'm just trying to work out if this could be combined with something that would allow you to travel from Melksham.

[grahame]

Oh my goodness ... I knew I was opening a can or worms, but not THIS big a can of worms 

Back to grahame's question about using Dilton Marsh as the origin station for the Season. Or thetrout's suggestion of Warminster. Whilst you can buy a Season marked 'Any Permitted' from either of these stations you need to know the appropriate Routeing Points and whether the 'fares check rule' is satisfied.

The appropriate Routeing Points for Warminster/Dilton Marsh are Westbury and Salisbury. The 'fares check rule' states that a route is permitted via a Routeing Point if the fare from the origin to destination is not less than the fare from the Routeing Point to destination. In this case Westbury fails the 'fares check rule' as the Westbury - London Terminals 7 Day Season (Any Permitted) is more expensive than the 7 Day Seasons (Any Permitted) from both Warminster and Dilton Marsh. That just leaves Salisbury as an appropriate Routeing Point.

That appears to contradict the National Rail site which states: http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/seasonticket/tickets

Dilton Marsh (DMH^» (Dilton Marsh - next trains)) to London Terminals
Available Standard Class Adult Season Tickets (Travel is allowed by any route option shown by the Journey Planner where the journey can be made using only one ticket.)
Using National Rail services you can travel to / from the following London stations: London Bridge [LBG], London Cannon Street [CST], London Charing Cross [CHX], Vauxhall [VXH], London Blackfriars [BFR], London Waterloo East [WAE], London Victoria [VIC], London Waterloo [WAT], London Paddington [PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)], City Thameslink [CTK]

And it says nothing about being invalid via routes where the season ticket price is higher to an intermediate station.

So - does the routing guide or the contradictors web site information from National Rail take precedence?

By the way - I can't travel only via Salisbury for the week - my timing requires that I travel via Chippenham and possibly via Newbury

It has been confirmed to me by First Great Western, Southern and South West Trains that a train does NOT need to call at the origin station in order to change routes and/or start a new journey on the same season ticket.  E.g. for me Bedhampton to London is valid both ways out of Bedhampton, so I often use it passing through the station on a service that does not call at Bedhampton.

That is useful, thank you!

[basset44]

Sorry BNM,

The fare I quoted was to Farnborough (Main) I was entering a few combanations and the fare I looked at was not to London sorry.

Will one day get the hang of looking a the correct screen.

Still this is quite confusing on this journey

basset

[JayMac]

So - does the routing guide or the contradictors web site information from National Rail take precedence?

National Rail Enquiries is, in their own words, the definitive source for rail passenger information so it should take precedence. ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here)'s Rail Routeing Guide should be consulted if their is doubt over route validity. Any difference of opinion should favour the customer however, so I'd say the ticket would be fine and you have a strong case if anyone on your journeys says different.

It's also interesting to note that there are no mapped routes from Westbury to London Paddington via Bath and/or Swindon, but this is, I believe, an error in the printed Routeing Guide. The electronic Routeing Guide used by journey planners and booking engines permits travel via Bath and/or Swindon.

In summary, I'd say go for the Warminster/Dilton Marsh to London Terminals 7 Day Season (Any Permitted). Although this won't of course resolve your desire to see your journeys recorded from Melksham despite this ticket being valid through there.

And incidentally, what's wrong with the Melksham to London Terminals (Any Permitted) 7 day season apart from being around ^12 more than the one from Warminster? That would be valid via Swindon, Newbury and Salisbury and for stopping short at Farnborough (Main). Stopping/starting short and/or breaking and resuming your journey on a permitted route with a season ticket doesn't require the purchase of any additional tickets.

[grahame]

Whether you decide grahame to do so is entirely your decision. First line of defence would be the fact that if you were travelling on Anytime or Off Peak 'Any Permitted' tickets from Warminster/Dilton Marsh - London Terminals rather than the Season, they would pass the 'fares check rule' and permit travel via Westbury. Perverse that, by following the rules to the letter, the 'Any Permitted' Season doesn't allow travel via Westbury.

I decided to get an official answer to the specific issue of routing, in light of the contradiction and phoned FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to check.  According to H.P. on "option 1, suboption 3" at 15:55 today, the Warminster / Dilton Marsh season ticket at 231.90 (think I quoted that 20p lower earlier) IS valid via Westbury as well as via Salisbury.  The system told me that my call was recorded, so they can wind back and check if they need to  


STOP PRESS ... Thank you for your confirmation that what National Rail says takes priority ... my phone call (above) got routed through to them via the options, so I have 2 authoritative votes from them that it's OK, and one from the less authoritative routing guide that it isn't.  2 strong to one weaker is good enough for me ...

[grahame]

And incidentally, what's wrong with the Melksham to London Terminals (Any Permitted) 7 day season apart from being around ^12 more than the one from Warminster?

I didn't think that was valid via Salisbury.    The season ticket page on National Rail says "Available Standard Class Adult Season Tickets (Travel is allowed by any route option shown by the Journey Planner where the journey can be made using only one ticket.)" and I didn't think there was one ticket available for that ... from Bradford-on-Avon and from Trowbridge, yes, and at a good price - but not from Melksham. Thus my initial look at Trowbridge, then on to other places.