Class 455s to be upgraded

[whole diary]

[Network SouthEast]

I think many passengers would be aware of the 455s having no toilets.

Many trains operating in the London area have no toilets - none on 313, 315, 376, 378, 455, 456 units, nor any toilets on Underground trains, nor the DLR^▸ (Docklands Light Railway) or Croydon Tramlink. Passengers will be aware that toilets may not always be available.

In the case of SWT^▸ (South West Trains) and the 455s - these are painted in their own colour scheme from the rest of the fleet, plus SWT really make an effort to keep 455s on the same routes day in day out - sure this doesn't always happen, but these are very rare occasions. The other factor, is that SWT diagram 455s on routes that usually have an end to end journey time of around an hour - not long distance journies.

[JayMac]

Not ideal lacking toilets when they turn up on Reading services though.

A not too infrequent occurrence at the moment while the Class 458s are away getting stretched.

[Southern Stag]

It's not that they are away getting lengthened yet, I believe that a lot of the fleet required tyre turning.

[paul7575]

It's not that they are away getting lengthened yet, I believe that a lot of the fleet required tyre turning.

That's right, SWT^▸ (South West Trains) mentioned it in the webchat a few weeks back.  Apparently, as mentioned in wnxx, some sort of track defect damaged many of the 458's wheel sets.  AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) none of the 458s will be 'stretched' until the first four (or maybe even six) completed units made from the 460s are in service.

[swrural]

I think many passengers would be aware of the 455s having no toilets.

snipped

Pity those who don't then.      

 - always assuming they weren't trainspotters who knew what the numbers on the front meant.
 - or were blind
 -

BNM has reminded me about the journey length, which is extra to the points I made.  I reckon 40 mins should be the determining factor.  Otherwise the guard should warn pax before departure.  Any advance on 40 mins? 

[ChrisB]

An hour.

And if the station isn't ever served by trains *with* toilets, never. Not required, if no one expects them.

[Network SouthEast]

Pity those who don't then.      

 - always assuming they weren't trainspotters who knew what the numbers on the front meant.
 - or were blind
 -

BNM has reminded me about the journey length, which is extra to the points I made.  I reckon 40 mins should be the determining factor.  Otherwise the guard should warn pax before departure.  Any advance on 40 mins? 

You don't need to know the numbers on the front though. These trains are used on the same routes day in day out. In London there isn't an expectation of a toilet on a train, just like there is no expectation of 1st Class or a buffet car on suburban services. Whilst I feel sorry for anyone caught short, I think the majority of users in the London area will be aware of the lack of facilities.

And as I've said again, these trains are used on routes that are usually no more than an hour in length.

[eightf48544]

That's right, SWT^▸ (South West Trains) mentioned it in the webchat a few weeks back.  Apparently, as mentioned in wnxx, some sort of track defect damaged many of the 458's wheel sets.  AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) none of the 458s will be 'stretched' until the first four (or maybe even six) completed units made from the 460s are in service.

Another example of the the problems of the disconenct between the wheel and the track. In the old days the relevant Mechanical and Civil Engineers involved would be on the carpet in front of the general manager to sort it out. Nowadays it's buck passing to avoid penalties. I believe it's called market forces.

Doesn't work.

[Southern Stag]

SWT^▸ (South West Trains) is the closest to vertical integration on the network nowadays having been in a deep alliance with Network Rail for a while now. Tim Shoveller is not MD of SWT but MD of the SWT-NR^» (Network Rail - home page) alliance.

[inspector_blakey]

Another example of the the problems of the disconenct between the wheel and the track. In the old days the relevant Mechanical and Civil Engineers involved would be on the carpet in front of the general manager to sort it out. Nowadays it's buck passing to avoid penalties. I believe it's called market forces.

Doesn't work.

As someone who has first-hand knowledge of the situation under discussion, I'm afraid that your comment is ill-informed nonsense.

Both SWT^▸ (South West Trains) and NR^» (Network Rail - home page) worked very hard together in attempting to find the source of the problem, including running special empty stock trains through locations where the problem was thought to be. It took some time to identify it, but it was located and resolved. It's not in SWT's interest to have a piece of track chewing up train wheels, nor is it in NR's interest to keep having to foot the bill for repairs. Both parties had a strong interest in getting things sorted, and indeed they have been. I doubt BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) could have done it any quicker. Oddly enough getting people "on the carpet" for a dressing down doesn't actually solve any problems. Getting out there and working together does.

Wonder whether they going to fit loos in the refurbishment?

No plans to do so. As has already been extensively discussed above, the trains are used on short routes for which toilets aren't really required (and indeed fitting them would need extensive alterations to the trains, given that retention tanks would be required). BR specified the trains in the 1980s without toilets and their use hasn't changed significantly since then, so that's a good 20 - 30 years that the travelling public has had to get used to the idea that suburban services operated using SWT's red trains don't have lavs on board.

[ellendune]

Oddly enough getting people "on the carpet" for a dressing down doesn't actually solve any problems. Getting out there and working together does.

I don't find it odd at all. It's common sense really. On so many occasions the public's cry for someone to blame gets in the way of solutions.  That is why we now have the RAIB^▸ (Rail Accident Investigation Branch).

[thetrout]

Surprisingly I am in agreement r.e the Karzi issue. Suburban stock doesn't really need them providing that availability at stations is not a problem.

I think stock running services such as Bristol - Weymouth or Bristol - Salisbury should definitely have a toilet or two onboard. A lot of the intermediate stations lack facilities at all (Bradford-on-Avon, Keynsham) to name a couple. Or they are only open when the station is staffed (Trowbridge, Warminster etc)

I think it's more of a problem on London Underground services. I'm very careful in what I say about staff but it sometimes makes me think that LU Staff clearly have never heard of the concept of a toilet, as they don't like letting you out of the barrier to use one. I've had alsorts of comments thrown at me by staff including the suggestion of going before starting the journey (Which I would've done anyway)

I think it's about the four P's... (No pun intended ) if you know the method of transport is not going to have a toilet, then plan accordingly.

Without trying to hijack the thread, Considering my medical condition which on any day will see approximately double figure toilet visits. You learn to plan for the worst case scenario. I manage ok 90% of the time. However I really do get annoyed when staff make things as awkward as possible; like suggest buying a new ticket if you go out of the gateline.

The availability of public facilities should also be addressed. Closing toilets is only going to encourage people to urinate in the street. Spend a Friday or Saturday night in Bristol or Bath (The latter having only 1 central 24 hour free facility - 1 on the outskirts which is 10p a use) and you'll see exactly what I mean

[ChrisB]

Why can't those iut on the raz just pop back on the pub they had their last drink in, or even any other? Thats what I do....

[thetrout]

Licensing laws... No re-entry after 01:30 or there abouts AIUI^▸ (as I understand it). To be fair, Bristol City Council do put temporary urinals out in and around the waterfront. However they take the term 'Public' to a whole new level!

[Electric train]

Another example of the the problems of the disconenct between the wheel and the track. In the old days the relevant Mechanical and Civil Engineers involved would be on the carpet in front of the general manager to sort it out. Nowadays it's buck passing to avoid penalties. I believe it's called market forces.

Doesn't work.

As someone who has first-hand knowledge of the situation under discussion, I'm afraid that your comment is ill-informed nonsense.

Both SWT^▸ (South West Trains) and NR^» (Network Rail - home page) worked very hard together in attempting to find the source of the problem, including running special empty stock trains through locations where the problem was thought to be. It took some time to identify it, but it was located and resolved. It's not in SWT's interest to have a piece of track chewing up train wheels, nor is it in NR's interest to keep having to foot the bill for repairs. Both parties had a strong interest in getting things sorted, and indeed they have been. I doubt BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) could have done it any quicker. Oddly enough getting people "on the carpet" for a dressing down doesn't actually solve any problems. Getting out there and working together does.

I agree IB, likewise my work in projects involves many discussions involving our contractors, the Routes and their partners in the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s and FOC^▸ (Freight Operating Company)'s to reach a mutually acceptable access to the infrastructure I want to take to pieces and then put back together.  We will put together a risk pack sometimes its a bit dooms day i.e. worst case, when things go wrong, as they endurably will do, there is nothing to gain in finger pointing and blaming each other as that destroys working relationships better accept where you have got in wrong, learn from it and move on.   It our project office anyone walking in cannot tell which are NR staff and which are from the contractors and indeed which contractor, very collaborative.