TVM Collection - Bank Card Blunder

[whole diary]

[Andrew1939 from West Oxon]

At last some sort of explanation as to why tickets can be collected at Charlbury but not at Hanborough TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) (see the Void's posting). Charlbury is staffed until just after midday but Hanborough is unstaffed all day. However after midday, the situation at Charlbury is the same as Hanborough, i.e. unstaffed and so the railway logic breaks down then. Unfortunately when I have enquired from FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff no-one has been able to tell me this reason.
I have since checked and tickets purchased over the internet for travel from Hanborough are marked as not available. However advance tickets are not available to purchase from Hanborough but are from Oxford, so some locals have discovered this and buy a ^4.00 advance single over the net from Oxford to London for use on a train also stopping at Hanborough and then buy their HND/OXF^» (Oxford - next trains) ticket at the Hanborough station TVM. All quite legal so I undertand and this probably explains why they have not been able to collect their ticket to London from the Hanborough TVM.

[inspector_blakey]

However you're comment "Could be refused travel" worries me slightly. As this was an AP ticket, presumably I would have to purchase another ticket? Who would be classed as at fault.

1) The railway for no open ticket office and TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) refusing the card for the same Bank Account, just a replacement issued card (albeit a complete hash of it)

2) Me for not insuring I had a working card prior to travel; but that doesn't eliminate the possibility of the card becoming defective shortly before travel.

3) Both to blame for various reasons and/or the Bank.

You have made the mistake that a lot of other people make: in this situation you need to ask yourself one simple question.

"Was it the railway's fault that I couldn't collect my tickets?"

No, it wasn't. Move along, nothing to see here. Unfortunately that means it's your responsibility to sort the situation out. The fact that it wasn't your fault directly is unfortunate, but it's an issue between you and your bank that has nothing to do with the railway. You may potentially be able to claim back any money that you ended up out of pocket from your bank, but this is another one of those occasions where I'm afraid on a strict interpretation of the rules the railway owes you nothing. The fact that you may not have been personally at fault is immaterial.

It's very similar to the situation of "I got stuck in traffic" or "I had to take a two-hourly bus service that leaves a very tight connection so I chanced it rather than wait an two hours for my train" as reasons for missing your departure on an Advance ticket. The reason for missing your train may well not be your fault directly, but it most certainly isn't the railway's. If you book an Advance ticket, you accept the terms and conditions that apply, If you don't think they're fair, or are skewed in favour of the train company, it's your prerogative to book a different product or make alternative arrangements.

[trainer]

If you don't think they're fair, or are skewed in favour of the train company, it's your prerogative to book a different product or make alternative arrangements.

Harsh, but true. 

[John R]

It's very similar to the situation of "I got stuck in traffic" or "I had to take a two-hourly bus service that leaves a very tight connection so I chanced it rather than wait an two hours for my train" as reasons for missing your departure on an Advance ticket. The reason for missing your train may well not be your fault directly, but it most certainly isn't the railway's. If you book an Advance ticket, you accept the terms and conditions that apply, If you don't think they're fair, or are skewed in favour of the train company, it's your prerogative to book a different product or make alternative arrangements.

I'm completely in agreement. Elsewhere there's been some discussion that to make the conditions fairer, they should be altered so that if any form of connecting public transport (bus, plane) has delayed your journey to the station then you should be allowed to travel on a later service without penalty. However, to my mind the conditions are restrictive, but fair, and you have a choice when booking.




Edit note: Quote mark fixed, for clarity. CfN.

[ellendune]

I'm completely in agreement. Elsewhere there's been some discussion that to make the conditions fairer, they should be altered so that if any form of connecting public transport (bus, plane) has delayed your journey to the station then you should be allowed to travel on a later service without penalty. However, to my mind the conditions are restrictive, but fair, and you have a choice when booking.

I agree the only thing unfair about advance tickets is that if you do miss your train for other than the railway's fault you are not credited with the price of the ticket you have when buying another one. 

[swrural]

Well said Ellendune, a great proposal, and I won't go on about unnecessary advance ticket restrictions again   

- on the other hand,    do these companies actually want to attract repeat business or are they just trying to put pax off so that there are fewer complaints about rammed services?

Let's take your point on board.  Pax book advance tickets and then someone falls ill (name your own non-railway event).  They still turn up for another service so are about to give the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) even more profitable trade than was earlier the case.  If they never turn up the TOC has the money without the trouble of transporting them.

So why annoy them so that they harbour a nasty feeling towards the TOC thereafter?

OK, now let's hear it from the people with the doubtless myriad counter-arguments.  I hope Managers are following this.

[inspector_blakey]

In the case of illness or a change of travel plans, there is provision to change an Advance ticket before travelling (as long as this process is started before the first train is due to depart). The passenger will need to pay:

a) an administration fee (which I believe is GBP10.00 although I have never gone through this process);
b) the difference between the fare already paid and the cheapest fare (Advance or, if not available, walk-up) available to travel on your "revised" train at the time you make the change request.

This allows you to make changes to travel plans, but also provides something of a disincentive to do so unless it's absolutely necessary: in my opinion it strikes just about the right balance. If Advance tickets were changeable/refundable without penalty, there would be significant abuse of the system with people jumping in to secure the cheapest deals on the offchance that they might use the ticket, secure in the knowledge that they could simply claim a refund or make changes to their arrangements if they chose not to use the cheap deal they had secured.

The admin fee means that there will be some cases where it is cheaper simply to ditch the original ticket and start again, but in the majority of cases the passenger will not forfeit the entire value of an Advance ticket should they need to change plans before the day of travel. However, attempting to board a later train after missing the one you were booked on and then make these changes on-board is an absolute non-starter: if you have missed your first train through no fault of the railway then the ticket has no refund or exchange value and you need to start again.

[bobm]

Perhaps a simplistic view but the few times I have lost money through the non-use of an advance ticket I think is more than offset by the overall savings I have made through buying tickets ahead of time.

[ChrisB]

Yep, agree with those right above.

Its an offer being made. If you choose to accept & purchase, the T&Cs are clear. If you missed a flight, you'd get nothing either

[swrural]

Just to make it clear, i am only referring to 'missed train' situations so ED's suggestion of partial refund seems highly commendable.  It would only be valid 'same day' (choose a period if fairer).

I understand the other objections.

[JayMac]

Travel insurance is available to cover many, if not most, 'missed departure' scenarios. Some online ticket sellers offer it for just a couple of pounds on top of the cost of the fare.

Your own travel insurance policy may cover you as well. Or, if you regularly use Advance Purchase tickets and suffer 'unforeseen circumstances' it may be worth finding a policy that'll cover you.

It is not the railways' job to bend over backwards to accommodate you if you miss your departure and they are not at fault. The terms and conditions of Advance Purchase fares are clear. If you don't like the product, don't buy it.

[BerkshireBugsy]

It is not the railways' job to bend over backwards to accommodate you if you miss your departure and they are not at fault. The terms and conditions of Advance Purchase fares are clear. If you don't like the product, don't buy it.

At the risk of sounding hard I'm totally with you on this BNM. I have seen airport docusoaps where passengers complain that the are not allowed to board a service because they are "only a few minutes late". If your journey to the airport is by road or train then - and here comes the surprise - allow plenty of extra time....delays can happen.

[Surrey 455]

As an aside why do you need both a card and the ticket booking reference? Looking at the randomness of the reference number I would have thought that would be sufficent security.

I bought a ticket on Southerns website last night for travel today. Collecting the ticket from a machine at a Southern Station I was surprised when it printed my tickets after inserting my card but without asking for the reference number. This has not happened to me before. I usually use FGW^▸ (First Great Western) or SWT^▸ (South West Trains) online and collect at an SWT station. I note that Southerns machines are not the same as the ones FGW and SWT use so the firmware and software may well be different.

[ChrisB]

If you book & collect with/from the same TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company), it will usually offer you the tickets by simply inserting the payment card. Cross TOC bookings / collections don't tend to do this. If you book tickets with more than one reference, it asks initially for the first reference, but again, colldection of tickets on the other reference simply needs the payment card.

I thought this was general knowledge, hence not posting it till now

[bobm]

I have not been asked for the reference on occasions in the past when collecting tickets bought via the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) site from a FGW machine but more recently this no longer seems to be the case.