TVM Collection - Bank Card Blunder

[whole diary]

[BerkshireBugsy]

I suspect you would have to have bought fresh tickets on the Saturday & claimed a refund on the originals.

T&Cs very clear that it is your responsibility to  collect your tickets in advance of travel. A knackered card is hardly any fault etc of a third-party company, is it?

When I was tavelling about a month ago the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)  was out of service at my local station and the ticket office was not  yet open. There was no TM^‡(resolve) on the service so my first opportunity was to buy a ticket at the excess fare office at Reading. For some reason the card reader would not read the chip on my company credit card (not card declined, just didn't like the chip for some reason). I was escorted "part" of the way to the ticket sales counters where I inserted my card and it worked first time. It also worked in the ATM^‡(resolve) - I only did this test for my own piece of mind.

Although the T&Cs are black and white life isn't

[ray951]

I suspect you would have to have bought fresh tickets on the Saturday & claimed a refund on the originals.

T&Cs very clear that it is your responsibility to  collect your tickets in advance of travel. A knackered card is hardly any fault etc of a third-party company, is it?

While it is true that a broken card is not the fault of the 3rd party company. As the 3rd party company requires the card as part of their process they need to have a clearly defined process for what to do if said card is lost or broken. That information should be on the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) and/or the booking confirmation and having checked my most recent booking it is:.

It states "To collect your tickets, you must have both the credit/debit card used to purchase the tickets and your ticket booking reference. If you do not have them, a new ticket at the full fare will have to be bought to travel. If your payment card has been replaced since you made your booking, please contact Web Support on 0844 556 5605 before starting your journey."

It also states "Please note that if you are starting your journey at an unmanned station without a self service ticket machine, and have selected to collect your tickets from an alternative station, you must collect your tickets before you travel. You are not permitted to travel to that station using the booking reference or confirmation email for this booking to collect your tickets."

As an aside why do you need both a card and the ticket booking reference? Looking at the randomness of the reference number I would have thought that would be sufficent security. Of course it may not be truly randomjavascript:void(0);

[ChrisB]

Hacked emails....

[Chris from Nailsea]

It also worked in the ATM^‡(resolve) - I only did this test for my own piece of mind.

... or, rather more probably, for your own peace of mind. 

[thetrout]

Does BB get an issue of this CfN??

[BerkshireBugsy]

It also worked in the ATM^‡(resolve) - I only did this test for my own piece of mind.

... or, rather more probably, for your own peace of mind. 

Definitely !

[Andrew1939 from West Oxon]

"Please note that if you are starting your journey at an unmanned station without a self service ticket machine . . ." This condition needs to be qualified to add "with ticket collection facilities."
At Hanborough the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) does not have this facility and local rail users are often unaware of this having purchased a ticket over the internet. Contrast Charlbury however where the TVM does have a ticket collection facility. Both machines were installed at about the same time but no one at FGW^▸ (First Great Western) has been able to tell me why the Hanborough machine cannot do what the Charlbury machine does.

[ChrisB]

Does Hanborough appear in the drop-down list of stations when you specify where you want to collect it? There used to be a warning displayed that there was no collection facilities at the chosen station & that you needed to arrange to collect elsewhere in advance of travelling if this was indeed the case.

[thetrout]

I suspect you would have to have bought fresh tickets on the Saturday & claimed a refund on the originals.

Aren't Advance Tickets non refundable however? Not to mention an FOS from Bath Spa - Southend Stations is priced in the hundreds. That seems very, very biased to the rail operator there doesn't it?

T&Cs very clear that it is your responsibility to  collect your tickets in advance of travel. A knackered card is hardly any fault etc of a third-party company, is it?

I may be splitting hairs here. But I disagree in some cases; A third party company for example could be another Banks ATM^‡(resolve) which could have accidentally knackered the card? Maybe eat the thing causing you to lose possession?

A Third Party might be a drunk person in the pub the day before travel who knocked into you, causing you to drop the card and damaging the chip in the process? (Reasonably close to what happened. However admittedly I fell over my own feet, ar$e over t1t down three stairs whilst holding the card about to pay the bill in a restaurant which then snapped the bluddy thing in half! )

I think we may have to agree to disagree ChrisB. As BerkshireBugsy pointed out and to be honest I am in 100% agreement. Rules and procedures are very black and white; often in the case of the railways IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) it seems to be biased towards the train operator. But life is anything but black and white.

Whilst I don't wish to go off topic too much. I have noticed over the years that the more and more you research into things such as Law, Rules & Regulations and/or various other procedures in the 'workplace' The more and more you realise how much you break these on a daily basis; because they are so daft or completely remove all elements of common sense.

In this case, I had the reference number, I had the details of the purchased ticket on my iPhone app and finally the Seat Reservation card with my Surname printed on it.

It did not occur to me that I would have problems collecting my tickets with just a replacement card. As I said, I was being naive because my MasterCard was replaced earlier this year which provided the same details with a different start from date.

Had the TM^‡(resolve) tried to sell me an FOS I would've asked for a UFN^‡(resolve) or MG11^▸ (Form to take a statement for use in court) as appropriate and then disputed it directly with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) at a later date; citing the majority of the reasons and explanations above. Also making it clear in a letter that at no point was I defrauding the railway as I had already paid the sum due for travel but was unable to collect the tickets. Making sure to emphasis the point that the railway suffered no financial loss as (again) the fare had been paid prior to travel, but was unable to prove this at the exact time.

The TM Showed excellent discretion after I explained the situation and showed him the booking. But being completely honest here. I wasn't asked for a ticket until after Reading (Possibly around Slough IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly)) and even then that was only after I was 'spotted' heading back to my seat from the Buffet.

Does Hanborough appear in the drop-down list of stations when you specify where you want to collect it? There used to be a warning displayed that there was no collection facilities at the chosen station & that you needed to arrange to collect elsewhere in advance of travelling if this was indeed the case.

I'll just throw into this as an extra here. Some websites show Frome as an available ToD Collection Location (The TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) Has the little green button on the screen allowing you to collect tickets; I does work too as I have collected tickets before having just got off 2C36 at 00:19 )

However, not every website does list Frome as a ToD Station... Is that the same case here perhaps?

Here are 2 screenshots, The first from FGW showing FRO^» (Frome - next trains) as a ToD, the second from Southern which does not have FRO in the list. Not only that, Southern have the First Advance for the same Date and Train Time at a different price than that of FGW...

[ChrisB]

I guess we're talking legality as opposed to sensible discretion....

The T&Cs require you to be in charge of a fully-working bank card in order to collect your tickets. You agree to these on purchase of TOD tickets. It is not the fault of the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) that subsequently your card is knackered & your replacement is mis-issued by your bank.

So legally, the TOC can require you to re-purchase as you are unable to adhere to their T&Cs. You I suspect would be looking for recompense through your bank for not following your instructions in the reissue of your card.

All very cumbersome, but strictly legally, that would be the route.

But of course, they can tell that you have purchased a ticket, and are just unable to collect it through no fault of yours or theirs. So it'd be sensible to allow you to collect at the next available opportunity. Called Good Customer Service,. so long as you are carrying the proof(s) of purchase & Collection.

Asking for a UFN^‡(resolve) in this instance I would agree with, and argue cancellation afterwards.

Lastly, you're comparing two different fares - the first is to U! on the underground, the second is to London Terminals.

[swrural]

Trout reminds me of my best man, he was always having these 'incidents'.  I am so sorry to hear about them.  I had one appalling experience using these machines (described here elsewhere sometime back), where there was a huge queue of folk who clearly were new to using the machine, and eventually my train was due to arrive at the platform.  The service it connected with at Exeter was the only one that would have been useful (the tourist Sunday special Exeter to Okehampton) and I am afraid I blustered and equally luckily, they were not after that same train.  Phew!  It was my first time of using the thing and my last, I suspect.

[the void]

"...no one at FGW^▸ (First Great Western) has been able to tell me why the Hanborough machine cannot do what the Charlbury machine does.

all FGW TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) are capable of processing TOD, however, this function is switched off at unstaffed stations. The reason being that DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) guidelines require a back-up system (a STAR terminal) be in place in case of TVM failure. So unstaffed locations do not offer TOD. of course this doesn't really make sense, as TVMs at staffed stations continue to offer TOD after the staff go home, at which point they become exactly the same as unstaffed stations! but regardless, that's the reason why.

Nailsea and Backwell is an exception to this rule as the TOD function was switched on by accident and by the time anyone noticed regular customers were used to using the facility, so it was decided to leave it in place.

[paul7575]

... The reason being that DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) guidelines require a back-up system (a STAR terminal) be in place in case of TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) failure. So unstaffed locations do not offer TOD.

A check of a few random SWT^▸ (South West Trains) managed stations (without ticket offices, e.g. my local station at Botley) shows they still offer ToD from their TVMs.  Are you sure this is a DfT guideline, or an FGW^▸ (First Great Western) specific decision?

Paul

[Chris from Nailsea]

Nailsea and Backwell is an exception to this rule as the TOD function was switched on by accident and by the time anyone noticed regular customers were used to using the facility, so it was decided to leave it in place.

Ahem! 

Actually, I think you'll find they did that at my personal request. 

Chris from Nailsea. 

[Southern Stag]

Not only that, Southern have the First Advance for the same Date and Train Time at a different price than that of FGW^▸ (First Great Western)...

The different price is probably because by putting the ticket in your basket on the FGW site it has been reserved for you for a period of time. If it was the last left at that price level any other website would then offer the next ticket in the next price range, as the lower one is reserved for on the FGW site for you.