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Author Topic: How to cut the cost of your rail tickets: Guardian video article  (Read 13911 times)
inspector_blakey
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« on: April 02, 2013, 18:17:58 »

There's a few useful tips here, but even as a fully paid-up member of the Guardian-reading fraternity I found a lot in this video that irritated me, like the casual side-swipes at the train service in this country, lack of explanation of Advance versus walk-up fares and the implication that the only walk-up ticket to Manchester is over 300.00.

What do other users think...?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/video/2013/apr/02/cut-cost-rail-tickets-video
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paul7575
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« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2013, 18:24:31 »

... and the implication that the only walk-up ticket to Manchester is over 300.00.

What do other users think...?

That's par for the course. 

They almost never mention the availability of reasonably priced 'offpeak' walkup fares in such articles.  Must be one of the main rules for railway stories.

Paul
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ellendune
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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2013, 18:28:08 »

A bit of a disappointment really.  They should have:

1) explained off peak fares;
2) explained the rules for advance fares
3) explained the rules of split tickets.
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The Tall Controller
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2013, 19:06:28 »

Mentioned that a return to Penzance from Paddington is ^250 (roughly) which is correct but is only needed for 2 direct trains down to Penzance and only 2 going up. Regular price is half that! What he got wrong was his split ticket which would not have cost him a measly ^50 had that been in walk-up prices.

As said before, he does have a go at the high prices of train travel (especially compared to prices of flights). However you tend to book your flights IN ADVANCE hence the cheap price. Its the same with the railways.

He is right about trainline.com, but he did make it look as though East Coast was the mecca of all online tickets!
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 19:21:02 by Rob T » Logged
swrural
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« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2013, 19:43:21 »

Yes, his video content, particularly the comparison between walk up full fare and advance split fare was so trite it counted as a unintended falsehood.  An agenda there I suspect, or he is just not very bright, possibly.

One thing however is true.  It does end up with one often paying more for the rail journey to the airport than the flight to a distant holiday.  One reason this may be so, is that one can book one's air ticket more than 6 months in advance but one's rail ticket not before three months from the intended date of travel.

This is an appalling and inexcusable situation.  We are flying to Lisbon in a months time for ^34 each, return.  Our tickets (or petrol and parking) vastly exceed that sum.
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ellendune
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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2013, 20:24:22 »

Yes, his video content, particularly the comparison between walk up full fare and advance split fare was so trite it counted as a unintended falsehood.  An agenda there I suspect, or he is just not very bright, possibly.

One thing however is true.  It does end up with one often paying more for the rail journey to the airport than the flight to a distant holiday.  One reason this may be so, is that one can book one's air ticket more than 6 months in advance but one's rail ticket not before three months from the intended date of travel.

This is an appalling and inexcusable situation.  We are flying to Lisbon in a months time for ^34 each, return.  Our tickets (or petrol and parking) vastly exceed that sum.

No need for engineering work on the flight path between UK (United Kingdom) and Lisbon. So no need to plan possessions. 
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swrural
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2013, 22:23:42 »

I don't see, with respect,  what that has to do with it (anyway), and what it has to do with giving people a big reduction for giving the transport company one's cash nine months in advance!

There will be a 6 mins past the hour train to WAT from AXM every hour from now until the end of time and SWT (South West Trains) know it.  If there are later alterations after one has booked, they can do what Easyjet have coincidentally just done, namely emailed me to tell me my flight is half an hour earlier and given me the option of my money back or select an alternative.

But of course they are a proper commercial outfit and not a half way house, who throw in the towel on their obligations if it is less profitable and when it suits them.

You gather I feel strongly about this.
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John R
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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2013, 22:30:08 »

There will be a 6 mins past the hour train to WAT from AXM every hour from now until the end of time and SWT (South West Trains) know it.  If there are later alterations after one has booked, they can do what Easyjet have coincidentally just done, namely emailed me to tell me my flight is half an hour earlier and given me the option of my money back or select an alternative.

But of course they are a proper commercial outfit and not a half way house, who throw in the towel on their obligations if it is less profitable and when it suits them.


Remind me which obligation the owner of SWT has reneged on?
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inspector_blakey
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« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2013, 22:48:56 »

But of course they are a proper commercial outfit and not a half way house, who throw in the towel on their obligations if it is less profitable and when it suits them.

Air travel and rail travel are two very different beasts, and in my humble opinion there are far too many utterly specious comparisons made between them when it comes to the matter of ticketing. I can tell you feel strongly about this, but with respect I think you have fallen into this trap, and I vehemently disagree with your argument.

Firstly, your initial point: the railways release their cheapest fares 12 weeks ahead of travel, the airlines six months (or indeed longer, as I believe many airlines open reservations a year ahead of time). You wouldn't get things any cheaper if the railway released fares six months ahead of time, the fares wouldn't change.

Secondly, airlines are obliged to maintain passenger manifests with names, addresses and where applicable passport or ID details of all passengers on-board. Every single passenger has to provide these when they book. That means that the airline industry is set up with databases that contain all of this information for all passengers who have booked, making it a relatively straightforward process to contact all passengers on a given flight should the time change. Rail passengers in this country are, quite rightly in my opinion, able to book tickets, including advance fares at a station, without providing any personal details at all: this means they are not necessarily contactable once they have booked should there be a change in the timetable.

Thirdly, Easyjet and other budget airlines operate strictly as "point-to-point" carriers, so they make no allowance whatsoever for connections even with their own services. They can, therefore, change the time of a flight almost on a whim should they choose to, and have no liability to the customer for connections that they will miss as a result. The railway provides a huge variety of connecting services and has an obligation to get passengers there by the last train or accommodate them overnight, so again it would not be reasonable to open advance ticket sales until the timetable has been confirmed, which happens 12 weeks out.

Fourth, the density of airline traffic isn't even close to that of rail traffic, so the odd time change here and there won't be a huge administrative burden to process. Try contacting everyone with a seat reservation on every train service for weeks or months if the timetable has to be altered after the booking.

It would be possible for the railways to adopt the same ticketing policy as the airlines, but you should be very, very careful what you wish for: try travelling on Amtrak in the US which effectively does ticket as an airline. You'll find utterly eyewatering walk-up fares even off-peak, so that last-minute or spur-of-the-moment travel is just not possible. You'll find yourself denied access to any train without a reservation. You'll find staggeringly long booking office queues whilst the bureaucratic ticketing process (which involves giving full contact details and producing government-issued ID) grinds slowly along.

In summary, I think that what you suggest is utterly unworkable.

Finally, you mention that the airfare costs less then the train to the airport or the cost of fuel and parking. Doesn't that suggest to you that the flight you're taking is artificially cheap, rather than the ground transport being artificially expensive? There will be plenty of other people on-board your Easyjet flight who didn't have the luxury of being able to book months in advance and have paid through the nose for the privilege of being there.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 22:55:27 by inspector_blakey » Logged
swrural
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« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2013, 11:32:40 »

Thanks IB.  My main point (your points duly noted) is that I find that the inability to publish bookable timetables more than three months in advance is what annoys me.  If you book online (that's what an online booking is) you give all the details that enables you to be emailed if anything needs to be altered.  I'm not referring to out of course delays or even planned engineering work and so on, but the situation where the service is totally altered.  Pax can be warned when booking that they need to check nearer the date if such has taken place and given the link to do so in the confirmation.

Regarding companies throwing in the towel (thanks JR), it was FGW (First Great Western) and the east coast lot (GNER (Great North Eastern Railways) was it?) I had in mind, not SWT (South West Trains).  However that debacle could be seen as the fault of the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) and its franchising process (that's another topic), rather than the franchisee, I concede.

I take the point that an advance fare might not be cheaper 6 months in advance than it would three months in advance (how is one supposed to know that as customer btw and what does it matter?) but it is the *convenience* (thinking of the customer) about which I am complaining.  One wants to feel one has booked everything in one shot.

Travel selling is a package activity and rail has a mountain to climb to reach the levels achieved by travel industry colleagues (I wonder if the concept of air, coach and others being 'industry colleagues' even really enters the awareness of some rail firms.  I mentioned here before that airline web sites enable you to book hotels, car hire, etc, in one fell internet session swoop).  Yes, I am aware of plus bus and the like, good stuff, but such could be built upon.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2013, 11:46:08 »

If everyone bought a ticket with reservation for a particular train (as they do when booking flights), I might agree with you.

But we value the flexibility of rail, and the TOCs (Train Operating Company) won't know which train you are expecting to catch (and you would be currently at ease to change your mind, even frequently, with flexible rail tickets.

To do the same with flight tickets is more complicated - you would need the airline to re-ticket you 90% of the time, especially when deciding to fly later....

Its not the same animal, as has already been explained :-)
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swrural
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« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2013, 14:47:24 »

ChrisB, I'll take your points head on if I may.  I don't see why, if some pax book a service in advance, how that prevents anyone else not doing so and turning up on the day.  I was not pleading for all trains to be reservable, although I think there is a case for some long distance ones to be so, even if you 'reserve' just minutes before boarding (but that point aside).

My example is the Bristolian customer who wants to get an afternoon flight from Gatwick to Tenerife in November.  I've noticed that the FGW (First Great Western) service (which timetable expires May 18th this year) allows one to book a ticket on Wednesday May 29th for the 10 00 at ^25.50 single, I just looked it up.  (Clearly I would probably want to book a return, but let's keep it simple for the moment).  But what's this?  29th May is for a new timetable that has not been made available yet.  When it is, does anyone doubt that exactly the same service will be offered every half hour even interval from TM(resolve) connecting at Reading?  If it were so in doubt, what is FGW doing allowing me to book for that train?  If FGW knows it's not changing that pattern of service already, what's wrong with not making the service in November available to book now?  The timetable is not going to change between now and halfway through December, if ever during the life of the franchise.

The fact that I would get the same fare by waiting until halfway through August to book is neither here nor there.  (Perhaps it should be so reduced; after all FGW will have my money now and a certain sale).

I don't mind in the least being thought a fool, but please be gentle and point out where my logic (and commercial sense) fails.  If mods think this is boring or unhelpful, I will accept that of course.   
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ChrisB
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« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2013, 15:17:23 »

First, the May TT has been finalised - some TOCs (Train Operating Company) even have theirs available as a pdf on their website. (is it T-12 or T-16 when new TTs are final?) - this one must be as you can buy Advances for that day too.

Other than Advance tickets, which are specific (like airline tickets) for one service, all ther tickets are somewhat flexible, and can be used as such without advising the TOC. So although you specify a train as an 'indication' of what service you are likely to be using, you aren't tied to it unless you buy an Advance fare.

THat is the point I am making - the ticket is flexible in some way - can you imagine the grief there'd be on here & elsewhere if you HAD to advise the TOC every time you changed your thinking on which actual train you were catching? Because to ensure trhe TOC then advised you of any disruption, they'd need to know exactly which service you were *definitely* catching - as the airlines do at the moment.
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Southern Stag
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« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2013, 16:39:23 »

My example is the Bristolian customer who wants to get an afternoon flight from Gatwick to Tenerife in November.  I've noticed that the FGW (First Great Western) service (which timetable expires May 18th this year) allows one to book a ticket on Wednesday May 29th for the 10 00 at ^25.50 single, I just looked it up.  (Clearly I would probably want to book a return, but let's keep it simple for the moment).  But what's this?  29th May is for a new timetable that has not been made available yet.  When it is, does anyone doubt that exactly the same service will be offered every half hour even interval from TM(resolve) connecting at Reading?  If it were so in doubt, what is FGW doing allowing me to book for that train?  If FGW knows it's not changing that pattern of service already, what's wrong with not making the service in November available to book now?  The timetable is not going to change between now and halfway through December, if ever during the life of the franchise.
The printed TT is subject to change and it often does because of engineering work. The timetable for a given day is confirmed roughly 12 weeks in advance and is unconnected to the printing of timetable booklets. This week for example services are all retimed through Reading. The standard printed timetable won't reflect this, but roughly 12 weeks ago the altered timings would have been uploaded to the railway systems and when advance tickets were released passengers would have been booking on the basis of the revised times. If bookings had been opened 6 months ago the times given would have been the standard, not revised ones, and passengers could potentially have missed connections.
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JayMac
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« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2013, 17:04:23 »

What also has to be remembered is that a railway timetable is a much more complex beast than an airline's schedule.
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