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Fourbee
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« on: March 28, 2013, 00:13:35 » |
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1) Guard->Buzzer->Driver: Set Back
2) Driver: Close Doors
3) Driver->Buzzer->Guard: Close Doors
4) Guard->Buzzer->Driver: Ready to Start
5) Driver->Buzzer->Guard: Ready to Start
6) Driver: Break Release. Open Throttle.
I was sitting at the front of a train yesterday and 2 before 3 is standard procedure on all trains I have been behind the cab on. The question is. What is the point of 3 if the door close procedure has already been initiated?
1) did happen as the guard did not execute the signal correctly
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Fourbee
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« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2013, 00:20:25 » |
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Southern Stag
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« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2013, 00:23:50 » |
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3 is just the driver acknowledging the guards close door signal. Should be 1-2 from the guard to the driver, which the driver then replies to as 1-2. Usually as the driver is acknowledging the guard he presses the door close button.
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Fourbee
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« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2013, 00:26:47 » |
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Absolutely. The problem is the drivers are initiating the door close sequence before acknowledging the guard.
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Fourbee
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« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2013, 00:32:00 » |
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I will add - presumably the point of repeating all buzzer codes is to ensure they have been heard correctly. Then there should be some way of communicating an erroneous "response".
e.g.
1) Guard->Buzzer->Driver: National anthemn. A pram is trapped in the doors.
2) Driver->Buzzer->Guard: Eh?
Take the point of today. The guard could have issued any buzzer code and the door close sequence was initiated as a matter of course even though he signalled set back
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Network SouthEast
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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2013, 04:24:40 » |
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A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
It is ridiculous to suggest that a driver would set-back just because a guard had told them to. For a start not only is it common sense not to set back, but it would also be against the rules to set back in the scenario that Fourbee describes.
1-2, which can sometimes sound like 3 on the bell/buzzer is of course the code from the guard to give the driver the Ready To Start signal. If a driver set-back just on the basis of a 1-2 sounding like a 3 and nothing else, they'd be looking at almost certain permanent removal from train driving.
If the bell/buzzer is misunderstood then a 1 - stop can be given back in reply. The driver and guard also have a cab to cab phone where they can communicate quickly if need be (such as re-releasing the doors).
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Fourbee
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« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2013, 10:14:28 » |
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Sure - it is a ridiculous scenario and obviously the train would not move with the doors open anyway.
Put it another way - what is the point of the driver repeating the door close signal if he has already started closing the doors? The guard might as well just give the Ready to Start once the doors have closed.
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inspector_blakey
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« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2013, 13:44:54 » |
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A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
It is ridiculous to suggest that a driver would set-back just because a guard had told them to.
Assuming the traction interlock was working properly, which it damn well ought to be on a train in service, it would be impossible to do so with the doors released anyway. Put it another way - what is the point of the driver repeating the door close signal if he has already started closing the doors? The guard might as well just give the Ready to Start once the doors have closed.
Essentially because that's what the rule book says: all buzzer codes must be acknowledged by repetition to confirm understanding. I don't know what instructions are issued to drivers and guards on this matter, but I suspect that technically the code should be repeated before starting to close the doors. However you'll commonly hear codes being repeated back to the guard after the driver has started done something, most notably acknowledging the "two" signal for "ready to start" after taking power. |
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Fourbee
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« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2013, 13:58:04 » |
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What would be more ideal is if the guard could close the doors using the controls in the rear cab. The 165's/166's were designed with DOO▸ in mind of course.
Presumably the door controls are disabled when the rear desk is off. Would it be possible to modify this easily?
Not all the controls are disabled - I've seen a youtube clip where the guard sounds the horn as a turbo pulls away to ackwnoledge some people on the platform.
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Network SouthEast
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« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2013, 14:58:20 » |
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Not sure what your angle is with this Fourbee?
It's a system that has worked fine on the North Downs Line for two decades. It's not even unique to Turbos either. On class 377 units, if the guard dispatches from a rear (or intermediate) cab then they also the same proceedure. By the way, it is known in Southern as the "10 bells" system of dispatch.
I suspect the Turbos will probably be retro-fitted with door controls inside the passenger saloon when they are displaced from front-line Thames Valley DOO▸ -P services.
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Fourbee
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« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2013, 16:58:03 » |
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I haven't really got one  it was just an observation really. Repeating the door close 1-2 after starting to close the doors serves no purpose IMO▸ . Maybe it has just evolved that way to speed things up. Indeed I've seen guards just verbally give the driver the nod out of a passenger door to save walking all the way back, which gets things moving quicker. At least the guard has a view from the rear cab and could stop things relatively quickly if something went wrong, which seems better than say SWT▸ where the guard could have a limited view after closing his local door. |
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JayMac
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« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2013, 17:03:47 » |
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most notably acknowledging the "two" signal for "ready to start" after taking power.
Sitting in the passenger saloon behind the cab on a DMU▸ you'll hear that all the time. Brake release, one or two notches on the power, then two on the buzzer. |
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"A clear conscience laughs at a false accusation."
"Treat everyone the same until you find out they're an idiot."
"Moral indignation is a technique used to endow the idiot with dignity."
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2013, 12:01:04 » |
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It is ridiculous to suggest that a driver would set-back just because a guard had told them to.
Assuming the traction interlock was working properly, which it damn well ought to be on a train in service, it would be impossible to do so with the doors released anyway. Entirely possible on a HST▸ which doesn't have any traction interlock system! Not all the controls are disabled - I've seen a youtube clip where the guard sounds the horn as a turbo pulls away to ackwnoledge some people on the platform.
All of the systems operated by air still work (horns, wipers), and certain electrical systems such as lights and buzzers, but many others don't - though could be fairly easily modified to do so in many cases I suspect. |
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To view my GWML▸ Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/ |
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inspector_blakey
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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2013, 12:53:27 » |
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Entirely possible on a HST▸ which doesn't have any traction interlock system!
Very true, but a bit of a stretch on a Turbo, per the original question  |
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