Train on Fire at PAD?

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

Network Rail & FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are tweeting about a train on fire & all services on stop....

NR^» (Network Rail - home page) amending tweets to say WAsn't a train on fire at PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains), but an issue with a train at Ealing Broadway which caused the train's 'fire bottles' to discharge. Situation resolved, no danger to pax, delays occurring. Emergency services have been on site.

[JayMac]

Can't see any tweets from Network Rail and FGW^▸ (First Great Western) don't mention it's a train fire.

[IndustryInsider]

Just a word on how the automatic fire bottles operate:

They are for the engines only and do not operate when there is a saloon fire - manually operated extinguishers have to do the job then.  A heat detecting circuit runs round the engine and when it detects abnormal heat then the fire alarm sounds in the drivers cab and when the speed of the train is reduced to less than 6mph the automatic extinguisher activates.  If there is an engine fire and that doesn't put it out, then there's a separate extinguisher which can be operated by a pull handle manually.  The driver is aware which engine is affected by that carriages 'cant rail' light being lit.

So, if there wasn't a fire it must have been a defect with this heat detecting circuit.  They have been known to set the extinguishers off at very low temperatures (explain that one if you can!), but it's unusual (though not unheard of) for them to go off under normal running conditions.  Ironically when the extinguisher contacts the hot engine there's a hell of a lot of steam which actually makes it look as if there is an engine fire, even if there isn't! 

[ChrisB]

Sorry, @Nationalrailenq.....not Network Rail.

And Jess @FGW^▸ (First Great Western) did mention 'fire' in one tweet....

[grahame]

This provides a very interesting example of how wide knock-on effects can be.

The 10:00 Paddington to Paignton is running 34 minutes late, and will be terminated at Newton Abbot.  So the 14:15 Paignton to Paddington is cancelled from Paignton and Torquay.  According to the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) online ticket site (which is still advertising the 14:15) the next avalable service is the 15:13, with a London arrival of 18:21.

[Louis94]

0957 Paddington - Oxford was reported to be on fire between Paddington and Acton Mainline on the Relief lines. Train was stood for 15 minutes before continuing to Ealing Broadway where it terminated at 1021, 16 minutes late. The set involved has now gone to Reading Depot - departed Ealing Broadway at 1025.

Lines were blocked for just over 30 minutes - congestion caused has however caused further delays.

[IndustryInsider]

Apparently there had been an oil leak on the train.  That might've been enough to trigger the fire system.

[ChrisB]

In circumstances like these, rather than immediately bring the train to a stand, possibly in the middle of nowhere / very difficult to reach - shouldn't consideration be given to allowing the train to coninue to next station - maybe only when location is close to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) as the stations aren't far apart & evacuation would be simple.

[grahame]

In circumstances like these, rather than immediately bring the train to a stand, possibly in the middle of nowhere / very difficult to reach - shouldn't consideration be given to allowing the train to coninue to next station - maybe only when location is close to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) as the stations aren't far apart & evacuation would be simple.

Hmmm ... I'm not sure that fanning the flames by continuing to run a train, to bring it under the enclosed and populous roof at Paddington to make evacuation earlier would be such a good idea   Bearing in mind that although most alarms are going to be false, there might be a real incident sometime and as it develops, the people involved won't know which it is.

[IndustryInsider]

Drivers are instructed to not stop the train where access would be very difficult (as in a tunnel, on a viaduct etc.), but yes, if there is a real fire then continuing to a station unless it's literally just round the corner isn't advisable and the type of station would also be a factor, for example running into Reading with the train on fire isn't great, but at the same time the far end of the down main platform at Iver probably would be a good location as it is quiet and has reasonable road access nearby too.

Basically it's a judgement call for the driver depending on the circumstances.   It doesn't take long for panicking passengers to start pulling emergency egress handles/pass comms and taking the situation largely out of the drivers control anyway.

[ChrisB]

That final point is very valid....

[bobm]

Just a word on how the automatic fire bottles operate:

They are for the engines only and do not operate when there is a saloon fire - manually operated extinguishers have to do the job then.  A heat detecting circuit runs round the engine and when it detects abnormal heat then the fire alarm sounds in the drivers cab and when the speed of the train is reduced to less than 6mph the automatic extinguisher activates.  If there is an engine fire and that doesn't put it out, then there's a separate extinguisher which can be operated by a pull handle manually.  The driver is aware which engine is affected by that carriages 'cant rail' light being lit.

So, if there wasn't a fire it must have been a defect with this heat detecting circuit.  They have been known to set the extinguishers off at very low temperatures (explain that one if you can!), but it's unusual (though not unheard of) for them to go off under normal running conditions.  Ironically when the extinguisher contacts the hot engine there's a hell of a lot of steam which actually makes it look as if there is an engine fire, even if there isn't! 

Isn't this also why there are guidelines about when drivers/fitters can go in the "engine room" as they run the danger of being suffocated.

[Chris from Nailsea]

See also a previous discussion on this forum, at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=7092.msg71204#msg71204 for details of how these automatic fire extinguisher bottles operate.

[gpn01]

In circumstances like these, rather than immediately bring the train to a stand, possibly in the middle of nowhere / very difficult to reach - shouldn't consideration be given to allowing the train to coninue to next station - maybe only when location is close to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) as the stations aren't far apart & evacuation would be simple.

Hmmm ... I'm not sure that fanning the flames by continuing to run a train, to bring it under the enclosed and populous roof at Paddington to make evacuation earlier would be such a good idea   Bearing in mind that although most alarms are going to be false, there might be a real incident sometime and as it develops, the people involved won't know which it is.

If there's any prospect of it being a genuine fire then, as a passenger, my vote is to stop at the safest possible opportunity.  Convenience shouldn't be a consideration when you're in a potentially life threatening situation.

[Chris from Nailsea]

For some further background information, see also details of a previous real fire situation on the railway near Nailsea - from the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) in October 2004:

Commuters escape from train blaze


An investigation has been launched into the cause of the fire

At least 20 passengers fled from a train on to the tracks after a carriage caught fire on the outskirts of Bristol on Monday.

The blaze on the 8.06pm Wessex trains service from Bristol Temple Meads to Weston-super-Mare burnt out one carriage and badly damaged a second.

Eyewitnesses said flames reached 20 feet into the air. All the passengers escaped safely, but three people were treated for the effects of smoke inhalation.

The train came to an emergency halt half a mile from Nailsea and Backwell station in north Somerset.

British Transport Police said passengers and train controllers had called to report smoke on the train at 8.35pm. Most of the passengers were commuters returning home to north Somerset.

Witness Andy Didlick said: "Before I knew what was going on I looked out of the window and there were flames each side of the carriage and smoke coming in."

   
There is going to be a full investigation and safety is the priority in operating our railways these days. 
Andy Griffiths, Wessex Trains

"We couldn't actually get out. We pushed the emergency thing and nothing happened so we were stuck in there and it was pretty scary."

Another told the BBC: "We could hear some alarms going off for about four or five minutes and then one of the other passengers could smell smoke so they alerted the conductor and he said there was nothing the matter. The next thing we knew there was smoke and flames ripping down the carriageway. There were 23 people on there but had it been the half-past five train where it's completely packed out, there could have been people killed on it."

Some passengers were forced to move to the rear three carriages to stay safe. "The door wouldn't open at first. We finally opened it and jumped out," another said. One passenger said there had been a smell of burning from the time the train left Bristol.

Andy Griffiths from Wessex Trains said: "The doors had been opened when the train was brought to a controlled standstill, and the proper evacuation procedure was carried out. There is going to be a full investigation and safety is the priority in operating our railways these days. We do take these things very seriously and we will learn all the lessons we can from this."

An investigation is under way to determine what caused the fire. A British Transport Police spokesman said that preliminary investigations suggested a mechanical fault was to blame.