New rule with Advance tickets

[whole diary]

[bobm]

In the latest RAIL (No 716) Barry Doe highlights a change to the rules regarding advance tickets where the holder travels on a train other than the booked service.

The change applies to anyone who travels on the right day and with the original operator but at a different time.  Prior to the change the holder was liable to pay for an Anytime Single, now they can be sold the cheapest walk-up fare that would have applied had they bought it immediately before travel.  They can also use railcards if the original ticket was railcard discounted and they have the card with them (as they should).

The example quoted is someone booked on the 13:15 London Paddington to Cardiff Central but who travels on the 13:45.  Previously they would have been charged ^103.50, now they can be sold a Super OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) Single at ^40.50.  As before no allowance is made for the price paid for the original ticket against the new one.

The article does not quote any references to official confirmation of this change.  The piece also doesn't make it clear that this only applies to people who choose to travel on a different service.  In the case of disruption one assumes the first available train after a missed connection due to late running would accept the original advance ticket without question.

[JayMac]

This change was brought in on 1st November 2012. The guidance given to rail staff is as follows:

Q07 ^ If customers are found to be travelling not on their booked train (but on the correct date and correct Train Company), what fare will they be required to buy on board the train

A: The fare that would have applied had they purchased it at the station for travel on that train immediately before the start of the journey. If required a return fare can be sold.

Railcard discounts are allowed if the original Advance fare was Railcard discounted and the Railcard is held at the time of travel.

If your Advance Purchase ticket is for a different train company, a different day, or a different route, you will have to purchase the full Anytime fare and you may also be liable for a Penalty Fare.

The information is not yet on the National Rail Enquiries website and may not be on individual TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) websites. I've not checked them all!

[ChrisB]

The change applies to anyone who travels on the right day and with the original operator but at a different time.  Prior to the change the holder was liable to pay for an Anytime Single, now they can be sold the cheapest walk-up fare that would have applied had they bought it immediately before travel. 

So, that ought to read should rather than "can" - which implies a voluntary action by the seller.

[grahame]

I always understood that when you boarded the wrong train with an advanced ticket which you had not had changed ahead of time, you were liable to pay the full fare or a penalty fare as if you did not have a ticket at all, unless the reason you joined the wrong train because of a failure of the rail service.

However, in a conversation with a contact this evening, I understood that this has changed - a general ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) rule that First Great Western were not aware of until he raised it with them (and got some bigger guns to help him too).  I quote the following as the new position:

Sent: 19 July 2013 17:20
Subject: Case Ref: 7193728

First Great Western
Customer Services Team
FREEPOST
SWB40576
Plymouth
PL4 6ZZ

Tel: 08457 000 125
Fax: 08456 008 363
fgwfeedback@firstgroup.com

www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk

Ref: 7193728/FGW^▸ (First Great Western)

Dear Mr Xxxxx,

I am writing following your recent correspondence with us regarding passengers holding Advance Purchase tickets and boarding a train other than the service specified on the ticket.

I understand from the previous correspondence we have suggested that when this happens a new ticket has to be purchased and that new ticket should be a standard open single or return. This is incorrect and I apologise for the misleading information provided.

To clarify, should a passenger hold an Advance Purchase ticket and travel on a service other than that specified on the ticket, as long as it is the same Train Operating Company and the same day then they should be charged for the cheapest available ticket. Should a railcard be held by the passenger the appropriate railcard discount should also be applied.

I have ensured that my team are aware of this policy and again I am sorry the response you received was not up to the standard I expect. Should you have experienced an instance where this didn't happen I would be keen to know about it and would be grateful if you could forward me the details, via the contact details at the top of this email.

Thank you for your time today and for the opportunity to clarify our position.

Yours sincerely

Xxxxx xxxx
Customer Relations Manager

[JayMac]

That is the correct response from FGW^▸ (First Great Western). An industry wide rule was implemented on 1st November 2012 along the lines laid out in that response.

The guidance given to staff says:

Q: If customers are found to be travelling not on their booked train (but on the correct date and correct Train Company), what fare will they be required to buy on board the train?

A: The fare that would have applied had they purchased it at the station for travel on that train immediately before the start of the journey. If required a return fare can be sold.

Railcard discounts are allowed if the original Advance fare was Railcard discounted and the Railcard is held at the time of travel.

This came about following some high profile bad publicity for the industry where innocent mistakes were being heavily penalised on board. Despite the guidance to staff there are still instances of staff on board charging full Anytime fares and/or refusing railcard discounts.

Discussed on this forum earlier this year, also: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12045.0

[grahame]

That is the correct response from FGW^▸ (First Great Western). An industry wide rule was implemented on 1st November 2012 along the lines laid out in that response.

The guidance given to staff says:

Q: If customers are found to be travelling not on their booked train (but on the correct date and correct Train Company), what fare will they be required to buy on board the train?

A: The fare that would have applied had they purchased it at the station for travel on that train immediately before the start of the journey. If required a return fare can be sold.

Railcard discounts are allowed if the original Advance fare was Railcard discounted and the Railcard is held at the time of travel.

This came about following some high profile bad publicity for the industry where innocent mistakes were being heavily penalised on board. Despite the guidance to staff there are still instances of staff on board charging full Anytime fares and/or refusing railcard discounts.

Discussed on this forum earlier this year, also: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12045.0

Thanks for pointing to that; topics merged under that thread. 

It appears that the neither the on train staff, nor the initial customer service responders, were aware of the rule change in this case. It was, I understand, quite hard to get it resolved in line with the new rules.

I have to worry about the change; whilst it corrects an unfairly harsh penalty imposed on travellers who get it wrong by mistake, it can also appears to encourage people who have missed their advanced ticket train to "chance it", knowing that if challenged they'll have to pay no more than they would have done buying an extra walk up.

[paul7575]

I see FGW^▸ (First Great Western) persist in using the out of date name though, AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) they are 'Advance' tickets since 'simplification'...

Paul

[ChrisB]

Done to ensure pax know they are referring to an Advance ticket bought in advance and any other ticket bought in advance.

Hence if they said "Holding Advance tickets and boarding a train" could be mistaken for any ticket bought in advance.

[paul7575]

I disagree.  If I buy an anytime ticket online, for use next week, I've made a purchase in advance, ie in plain english an 'Advance Purchase'.   

[Red Squirrel]

Done to ensure pax know they are referring to an Advance ticket bought in advance and any other ticket bought in advance.

Hence if they said "Holding Advance tickets and boarding a train" could be mistaken for any ticket bought in advance.

I think the capital 'A' implies it's a noun rather than an adjective. So an 'advance ticket' would be any ticket bought in advance, whereas an 'Advance ticket' would be a specific type of ticket called 'Advance'.

But it could be clearer.

[paul7575]

Yes definitely.  They could have called them something familiar such as APEX; then again 'Highly Restricted' might do it as well...

Paul

[JayMac]

I nearly always refer to 'booked train only' tickets as Advance Purchase, always with capital letters to signify this is a product name.

If buying an Anytime or Off Peak ticket ahead of travel I would disagree that this transaction is, in plain English, an 'Advance Purchase'.

Purchased in advance of travel or purchased ahead of travel, yes. An advance purchase (note lower case) at a push, but I'd not use that as it leads to confusion.

Besides which, nearly all tickets are purchased in advance of travel, as required by the Conditions of Carriage and Railway Byelaws. Excepting travel from stations where there are no facilities to purchase the ticket you require.

I've retitled the thread to capitalise the word 'Advance'  

I do take issue with the response up thread from the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Customer Services Manager who refers to 'standard open single or return'. That is terminology to describe ticket types that should no longer be used.

Finally, these tickets are never 'advanced' in my eyes. There's nothing advanced about a piece of orange card using 1980's mag strip encoding technology.  

[Ralph Ayres]

You have of course always been able to change your plans, get no refund on the Advance ticket and buy the cheapest walk-up fare applicable at the time of travel, provided you bought the ticket before getting on the train. The only change is that you can now take any train the same day and hope not to get charged extra, without any risk of penalty fare/prosecution; you could even intentionally buy a ticket for a cheaper time of travel and claim to have changed your mind or made a mistake, if you know that you are unlikely to have your ticket checked on the journey you are making.

The excuse that it's to avoid penalising anyone who makes a genuine mistake is a bit hard to understand as Advance tickets have the train time printed on them. If the ruling actually applies to all tickets issued in advance with the myriad time restrictions applicable but valid on a number of trains then it would perhaps make rather more sense.

What is also needed, particularly on lines with a frequent service, is some flexibility at less busy times.  I'm thinking particularly of a journey from Wareham to London on a quiet Tuesday late morning, where I turned up in good time to avoid missing the booked train and had to watch the previous train leave empty as I wasn't booked on it.  You could say that's just the downside of buying a cheap ticket, but it would have cost the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) nothing to allow me to travel and they would have made their "product" more attractive with no extra outlay.

[ChrisB]

But they'd charge more for it as it would have some flexibility - and I thought fares were being simplified? You've just reversed that....

[JayMac]

If the ruling actually applies to all tickets issued in advance with the myriad time restrictions applicable but valid on a number of trains then it would perhaps make rather more sense.

It does. If you are travelling on a time restricted ticket at a time when it is not valid then you you only have to pay an excess fare up to fare valid at that time. You can not be given a Penalty Fare or prosecuted in these circumstances.

From the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

If you have an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket and board a train on which your ticket is  not valid, you will only be charged the difference between the fare you have paid and the cheapest valid Anytime or Off-Peak fare for the service concerned.

The change in the rules regarding Advance Purchase tickets was to bring them more into line with this, excepting you get no credit for the value of the AP ticket.