Away from the west. Picture quiz.

[whole diary]

[stationstop]

Go on BNM. This intrigues me!

[JayMac]

Th first part (Briz-Brum) involved use of a ticket between two towns both known for having a spa....

[EBrown]

And I believe you didn't read, or have ignored, the prominent sentence (in bold and underlined) at the head of the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter).

My apologies. I missed that - probably something to do with being awake at a silly time. Excuses aside, apologies.

[stationstop]

So it was Bath Spa to Droitwich Spa, as per above priced at ^26.50.

The next question- how did you get around the "Not via Birmingham" routing point? 

[stationstop]

Easement 3055 in the routing guide per chance?

[JayMac]

Easement 30055 wouldn't have worked as that applies on Saturday and Sunday only. Plus there is some ambiguity in whether an easement can trump a ticket's routeing. As Bath Spa - Droitwich Spa SVR is routed 'Not Via Birmingham' I think it better to find a fare that doesn't have that conflict between an easement and it the routeing printed on it.

So, the ticket I used was Melksham* (it once had a spa!) - Droitwich Spa. This is routed 'Any Permitted' and the National Routeing Guide allows the journey to be made via Birmingham New Street on Map CE. Chippenham is the appropriate Routeing Point for Melksham and it passes the fares check rule as the fare from Chippenham is the same.

Now, what about those 1st Class fares from Birmingham - Manchester? 

[John R]

Interesting. If I try the same journey from Bath, then the tickets appear to be shown as "not via Birmingham".

So, given the routing guide maps are not the easiest to understand, am I correct in saying that a ticket from Chippenham to Droitwich is valid via Birmingham, because you can follow a line from Chippenham to Droitwich that goes through Birmingham and doesn't include doubling back on yourself?

How is any "normal" passenger expected to understand the intricacies of the routing guide, let alone the myriad of easements? Indeed, I do wonder how on earth railway staff are expected or able to know such a level of detail. 

[JayMac]

You are correct in your analysis of the route, John R.

NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) condition 13 (a)(iii) allows you to travel on any permitted route that is shown in the National Routeing Guide. You have to take into account any routeing/TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) restriction printed on the ticket then trace a route from origin Routeing Point (in this case - Chippenham) to destination Routeing Point (Worcester) without doubling back through any station. You are also allowed to start and end your journey short at intermediate stations as long as the ticket's restriction code doesn't prevent this (NRCoC condition 16).

Droitwich Spa is a Routeing Point, although this isn't clear from the maps. You need to look up the station in the full station list of the Routeing Guide ('pink pages'). From that you learn that Droitwich Spa is part of 'Worcester Group' stations, so Worcester is the appropriate Routeing Point. Finally you need to check that there are no negative easements that would prevent you taking the route you have traced. In this case there nearly is - Easement 700189 - but whoever wrote that (CrossCountry I suspect) neglected to include Droitwich Spa!

The only way 'normals' can be expected to know of these intricacies is to learn the Routeing Guide and ticket validities for themselves, or seek help from others who have studied them. It's unlikely that you'll get help from railway staff, excepting the few who have also taken time to study it. Helping customers exploit loopholes to save money, or to travel by unusual routes is without the remit and training of rail retail staff unfortunately.

[John R]

A negative easement is an interesting, if somewhat illogical, concept.

The implication of the presence of negative easements is that it seems to require a passenger to interpret not only the routing guide, but also that to rely on the routing guide they would have to plough through hundreds of easements to ensure that there is not a negative easement that would bar a journey that the routing guide would allow. As this list can be updated at any time, they would presumably have to do this every time before they purchase a ticket.

Unfair contract terms, maybe?

[JayMac]

It's a minefield indeed. And one that needs treading through very carefully. 

I'm highlighting here the tickets I used, and I'm well prepared to argue my corner should a difference of opinion with rail staff occur.

If I were to offer advice to someone using the same ticket then that advice would be to go armed with all the details from the Routeing Guide. But you have to weigh up the potential hassle versus the money saved.

The fares system is extremely complex. I use that complexity to my advantage and will always warn others of the potential pitfalls should they choose to use a ticket like I have. I'm confident that what I'm doing is valid and in practice I've had few problems on the route between Bristol and Birmingham. Worst I've had is a ticket withdrawn for further investigation with a zero fare replacement given to allow me to complete my journey. After correspondence with the train company concerned they confirmed my original ticket was valid and gave me a goodwill gesture by way of apology for having withdrawn my ticket.

[thetrout]

Where can this weird and wonderful Routing Guide be obtained... I would certainly be interested in a copy for my own education... I'm tempted to see how far I can push a ticket I normally use but I'm not anywhere near brave enough unless this device suggests I "could" do it legitimately. But as BNM pointed out, It might not be worth the hassle like I had yesterday.

*** EDIT *** Please see my next post on Page 4 of this thread for clarification. There are a couple of errors in this original post which will become clear in my next post. I won't edit this post as it will make others' posts look out of context. Thanks are sorry. TT ***

I had a member of staff try and tell me that as I had reached a London Terminals Station my journey was complete. I argued how I had completed my journey when all I had done was transfer from the EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) Platforms to the FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) Platforms at St Pancras.

The chap informed me that because I had arrived on an EMT Service to a London Terminal that was when the journey completes even though I was changing trains at the same station. When I asked him about continuing my journey onto a "London Terminal" other than St Pancras if I had changed trains from EMT to FCC at Luton Airport Parkway and continued through St Pancras, he refused to answer my question and said "I'm telling you for the third time you cannot do that" My response was simple and polite "I appreciate what you'te saying, but the thing is, you haven't answered a perfectly valid and reasonable question. Why does it make a difference to validity if I changed at Luton Airport Parkway rather than St Pancras?" He then asked me to "Go Away" because "He had to much to do" I then got a little bit mift at this and asked to speak to a manager. Well you can imagine how that went down... when the manager agreed with me...

Annoyingly, he further suggested changing at Luton Airport Parkway to save the hassle and my ticket could be cheaper... Well that would be the case for a FCC Service... Tickets are cheaper than EMT for a reason

[EBrown]

Where can this weird and wonderful Routing Guide be obtained...

^The internet. Its freely available as a whole or several composite parts.

I had a member of staff try and tell me that as I had reached a London Terminals Station my journey was complete. I argued how I had completed my journey when all I had done was transfer from the EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) Platforms to the FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) Platforms at St Pancras.

It isn't always that simple. Your ticket probably wasn't valid for Cross London on the tube.

[grahame]

Where can this weird and wonderful Routing Guide be obtained...

^The internet. Its freely available as a whole or several composite parts.

http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

[Worcester_Passenger]

Where can this weird and wonderful Routing Guide be obtained...

^The internet. Its freely available as a whole or several composite parts.

http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

But, be warned, it's all there as a series of PDF files, not as something that you can neatly select from drop-down boxes. The 'yellow pages', the matrix of routining-point-to-routing-point combinations, comes out at 1143 pages.

Grahame - there may be scope for your ability here to process publicly-available information and present it to us mortals in an understandable way.

[grahame]

Grahame - there may be scope for your ability here to process publicly-available information and present it to us mortals in an understandable way.

It *is* a nightmare to use.   And since some of the easements are negative ones, in theory you may have to "scroll through" the entire list for any journey - even if it's valid by the normal rules - to see if it's explicity banned.  Actually I'm in doubt about that latter as it tells you only to look through for extra possibiiities - to see if other things are allowed, and I suspect you would have a strng case to argue if you broke a negative easement and wanted to take it up.   Field day for the experts in the fares offices.   Mere mortal passengers are simply expected to read and understand