Penalty fare query

[whole diary]

[Oxman]

Aarg,

In your son's case, all trains between Guildford and Reading have a guard - its a safety requirement. The guard will be in the rear cab, looking out of the window, so he/she can use the buzzer to communicate with the driver to close doors etc.

So, tell your son to speak to the guard. Say that he needs to buy a ticket and can he board the train. I cannot imagine and guard refusing. Then board at the nearest door and wait for the guard to appear.

Simples.

[thetrout]

Penalty Fares queries certainly do seem to raise their ugly heads more often than most. (Argg, that is not a dig at you at all btw)

To me, if this is the case. Is the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) system fit for purpose? Clearly from posts not at all exclusive to this forum, seem to be heavily discussed and people don't understand exactly what they are.

I raised this post in another thread a while ago, which sadly went unanswered by the poster I was replying to. But Argg has raised an interesting point of arriving too late to buy your ticket.

In my case I cannot drive and have to rely on Public Transport. (Most commonly owned in Zummerset by the same parent company who owns the company you work for Wink )

Lets take the example I am travelling on the 20:22 departure from Frome Town Centre to Bath intending to get an onward train to Taunton. Would I be expected to check for roadworks along the bus route? Checking that every single day would be the regular stationary vehicles in Norton St. Phillip. (Which regularly ends up causing delay and accidents do frequently happen pretty mundane (Not lazy, more tedious I'd say?). Even so that doesn't elliminate the possibility that a driver crashing into there).

Are you saying that if I then got to the station late because the bus gets delayed that it is my fault?

Now there is a very good reason why I chose this bus as an example. The 20:22 Bus is the next service in the time table. Prior to a fairly recent timetable change the departure was 18:22 exactly two hours before the 20:22. In the new timetable the bus leaves at 18:28 which is 1 hour and 54 minutes until the next bus.

Is it really appropriate for an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) in this case to say "You should've left earlier" ?? I'd be interested to see their reaction when they're told how much "earlier" I would've needed to leave to get there and how much waiting around would need to be done!

Personally, If intended a good connection and then suffered delay on route. I don't think I should be liable to a penalty fare. I also think that a missed departure on an Advance Ticket should be honoured. Because the 17:49, 18:28, 20:22 and 22:22 Bus Services are the last departures of the day and are all operated by FirstGroup. So (and grahame also agreed IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly)) as they are run by the same parent company, I think a ticket should be sold/passed without question on production of your Bus Ticket.

Also as I pointed out in the original post. Is one expected to check the timetable/bus route each time they intend to take a train? I don't suppose you would agree on how tedious that would be every day? (I use buses and trains pretty much every day)

Even then, that "delay" information is only as good as the person feeding it into the computer. Some companies (including a primary operator in Somerset & Wiltshire) predominately supply this information mainly over Facebook. Even to this day, not everyone has a Facebook Account.

Invariably, with FirstGroup's Service Updates, You tend to only find the delay info once the delay has started, really useful to find the 14:49 is cancelled at 14:45.

Perhaps when you look at other transport method's failings, it becomes clear how even the smallest delay has a large knock on effect which could end up being very costly (i.e. missed Advance Ticket Departure). Perhaps integration is a necessity rather than a desirability. But I don't think we'll ever achieve true integration with such a fragmented transport industry which seems to encourage PF's even for what could be a genuine issue through no fault of your own (i.e. It was the bus companies fault)

Completely throwing the thread off topic. I wonder IF I received a Penalty Fare for missing an Advance Ticket Departure because the First Bus 267 broke down, whether FG would cover costs for the PF and reimburse me for both my Rail Tickets and Bus tickets?

I thought not..............

[vacmanfan]

No, just like Virgin Atlantic would not reimburse you if you missed your flight because your Virgin Train was late.

And this is the problem with large transport conglomerates.  One name, one brand, one logo... Two or three or four very different companies. 

At my station we do not even stock first timetables, yet we do stock the rival bus companies!

Go figure.

[ChrisB]

This is not a rant against anyone here, merely a rant at the system from a genuine rule abiding passenger/customer/client who is also trying to explain the rules to a beligerant teenager who couldnt get up early enough!

My emphasis - but if an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) saw this, a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) it would be....

[thetrout]

My emphasis - but if an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) saw this, a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) it would be....

And what if the teenager suffered from Mental Health Conditions such as Insomnia, Depression and Anxiety to name a few?

(I threw that one out there as I suffer from all three of those conditions which started when I was in secondary school, and yes, I did used to fall asleep on the School Bus and during lessons!)

[EBrown]

And what if the teenager suffered from Mental Health Conditions such as Insomnia, Depression and Anxiety to name a few?

It gets very complicated and goes down to individual operator policy more than 'the rules'.

[inspector_blakey]

Lets take the example I am travelling on the 20:22 departure from Frome Town Centre to Bath intending to get an onward train to Taunton. Would I be expected to check for roadworks along the bus route? Checking that every single day would be the regular stationary vehicles in Norton St. Phillip. (Which regularly ends up causing delay and accidents do frequently happen pretty mundane (Not lazy, more tedious I'd say?). Even so that doesn't elliminate the possibility that a driver crashing into there).

Are you saying that if I then got to the station late because the bus gets delayed that it is my fault?

You're missing the point slightly here I think.

The important consideration isn't so much whether you *personally* are at fault, it's whether or not the *railway* is at fault. Clearly if your bus gets you to the station too late to buy a ticket that isn't because the railway is at fault. You would therefore not be technically protected should you choose to join a train without a ticket on that basis.

It sounds a bit harsh, but looking at things from a completely blunt, factual, legal and contractual point of view, it's not the railway's fault or problem that you can only get to the station on a two-hourly bus service that makes an iffy connection. It's possible that staff might show discretion, but you wouldn't be entitled to it I'm afraid.

[Chris from Nailsea]

It sounds a bit harsh, but looking at things from a completely blunt, factual, legal and contractual point of view, it's not the railway's fault or problem that you can only get to the station on a two-hourly bus service that makes an iffy connection. It's possible that staff might show discretion, but you wouldn't be entitled to it I'm afraid.

It may indeed perhaps seem a bit harsh, but that's life, and I'm with blakey on his summary of that situation.