Penalty fare query

[whole diary]

[argg]

Advice please

I arrive at the station too late to buy a ticket and hop on the train with the full intention of paying either on train or at other end.  Will I have the option to pay for the ticket or will I automatically get a penalty fare.  If the latter, why?

Scenario 2: Unmanned station, machine only takes cards, I only have cash

Thanks
James

[Brucey]

Scenario 1: Penalty Fare (or prosecution) if you are stopped by an authorised Penalty Fare Collector (i.e. Revenue Protection Officer).  Full undiscounted fare if stopped by the guard or train manager.  If this policy was not in force, then everyone would just "chance it".

Scenario 2: Depends how you interpret the Penalty Fare Rules.

[Andy W]

Suppose you get on the train & immediately find the train manager to pay for your ticket explaining your predicament. Would that be seen as acceptable?

[bobm]

I appreciate you should "arrive" at a station in good time to buy a ticket - what are the rules if you have a ticket from A to B but due to a change of plans you need to change at B for a train to C.  If your first train is delayed and there is no one selling tickets on it and you arrive at B with less than the connection time allowed would you then be allowed to purchase a ticket on the second train without penalty?

[JayMac]

Scenario 1: Agree with Brucey

Scenario 2: Grey area and one would expect discretion to be shown. If you have no acceptable card, or a card with no funds then that option is obviously not open to you. So you haven't passed an opportunity to pay.

If you have a card with cleared funds that the machine would accept and you choose not to use it then that may be taken as having had an opportunity to purchase and you could be liable for a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) or prosecution if you failed to take that opportunity.

[argg]

Thanks Brucey

So we are saying that if I genuinely got there with moments to spare because I was, say, delayed getting out of the house by family issues or en route because of traffic to station, and unluckily for me a revenue officer was on board not a train guard then I pay penalty fare without any discretion?  I daren't miss the train as there isn't another for half an hour and would otherwise be late for work/college.

You say "otherwise everyone would chance it", however if there was a consistent approach (train manager on every train or manned stations with barriers) then people would know there is no chance of "chancing it".

The above is a real example (involving my son on the Reading/Guildford route) however on my normal commute to Paddington for several weeks around Christmas the barriers at platform 11-14 bridge were unmanned and open in the morning peak every day.  The station I leave from has free access to the platform.  I could have avoided paying for the outward part of my journey (and sometimes the return too) everyday.  Never a guard, inspector or revenue officer on peak turbo trains into or out of London.  For the record, I did not avoid paying for any journey  
 
Andy W - how do I know if/whether there's a train manager on board and if so where to find him/her? Surely better to wait until he/she arrives.

BNM - Sounds reasonable


This is not a rant against anyone here, merely a rant at the system from a genuine rule abiding passenger/customer/client who is also trying to explain the rules to a beligerant teenager who couldnt get up early enough!

[Brucey]

So we are saying that if I genuinely got there with moments to spare because I was, say, delayed getting out of the house by family issues or en route because of traffic to station, and unluckily for me a revenue officer was on board not a train guard then I pay penalty fare without any discretion?  I daren't miss the train as there isn't another for half an hour and would otherwise be late for work/college.

You could alternatively be prosecuted under the railway byelaws, for failing to present a valid ticket when requested.

A Penalty Fare is exactly that, a fare (not fine) paid for honest mistakes or reasons where intentional fare avoidance is not suspected.  It is designed as an incentive to buy a ticket for travelling.

Andy W - how do I know if/whether there's a train manager on board and if so where to find him/her? Surely better to wait until he/she arrives.

Not actively seeking out the train manager or guard could be seen as intention to avoid payment and could lead to a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution, which is recordable on criminal record checks.

[John R]

Thanks Brucey

So we are saying that if I genuinely got there with moments to spare because I was, say, delayed getting out of the house by family issues or en route because of traffic to station, and unluckily for me a revenue officer was on board not a train guard then I pay penalty fare without any discretion?  

Yes. I would suggest that arriving without enough time to buy a ticket is probably one of the reasons least likely to get a sympathetic hearing. Where a facility exists to purchase a ticket (and that facility is able to take a form of payment that you have)  then you have an obligation to purchase before you board, and should allow enough time. 

And yes, lots of people do chance it.  The frequency of stops and possible rush hour crushes means that it's not always possible for a ticket seller to get through the train, and neither it is practical to have a manned barrier at smaller stations.  So without the penalty fare, there will be no incentive for someone to purchase a ticket before boarding, as they will hope that they don't get an "opportunity" to purchase before reaching their stop.

[Andy W]

Andy W - how do I know if/whether there's a train manager on board and if so where to find him/her? Surely better to wait until he/she arrives.

As far as I know the TM^‡(resolve) / Guard actually stands outside the train until departure so can easily be found - although not sure what happens if the train is DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)). On Turbos they seem to start in the rear cab. Just make sure your son is aware that it is his job to pay and make every effort to do so.

[inspector_blakey]

As far as I know the TM^‡(resolve) / Guard actually stands outside the train until departure so can easily be found - although not sure what happens if the train is DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)). On Turbos they seem to start in the rear cab. Just make sure your son is aware that it is his job to pay and make every effort to do so.

On a DOO service, there is no guard. There *may* be a ticket examiner or RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) on board, but this is not always the case. The obligations of the passenger remain the same: if there is a ticket office or ticket machine in working order that will accept a method of payment available to you at the station, you *must* buy your ticket before you board, and it is your responsibility to ensure you leave sufficient time to do so. Sob stories about your car breaking down on the way to the station, being on an urgent journey to see a dying relation etc etc will cut absolutely no ice. An awful lot of people chance it and staff have heard all these stories, and many others, several times before.

If you board a DOO service from a station where there is no ticket office and no machine, then you must buy a ticket at the first reasonable opportunity. This may be at your destination, or if you change trains en route at a station where you can buy the ticket you need. Note that again this is a slightly grey area. You would certainly need to be making an "official", timetabled connection. However at many stations this could be as short as 5 minutes, in which case *in my personal opinion* this would not necessarily be a "reasonable" opportunity. If I reasonably thought that buying a ticket at my interchange station would result in me missing my connection then I would board my second train and expect to be able to pay the appropriate fare that I would have done if there had been a ticket office/machine at my starting point.

I must stress that this is a personal opinion and does not constitute any kind of official advice.

[JayMac]

With regard to Penalty Fares and interchanges, this is covered in the Penalty Fares Policy that all TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) who run a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) scheme should adhere to:

Interchange. A passenger who changes onto a penalty fares train at a penalty fares station may normally be charged a penalty fare if ticket facilities were available at the interchange station and warning notices were displayed where they could be seen by anyone changing onto the penalty fares train. However, under condition 2 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, the full normal range of tickets must be made available to any passenger who started their journey at a station where no ticket facilities were available. In these circumstances, a passenger should not be expected to buy a ticket at the interchange station if they do not have enough time to do so without missing their connection. If it is not possible to check whether or not ticket facilities were available at the station where the passenger started their journey (which may be a station run by a different train company), a penalty fare should not be charged.

So, in a PF area you needn't delay your journey to purchase a ticket at an interchange if their were no facilities at your origin. And in non-penalty fares areas I'd argue the same should apply.

[EBrown]

If you board a DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) service from a station where there is no ticket office and no machine, then you must buy a ticket at the first reasonable opportunity. This may be at your destination, or if you change trains en route at a station where you can buy the ticket you need. Note that again this is a slightly grey area. You would certainly need to be making an "official", timetabled connection. However at many stations this could be as short as 5 minutes, in which case *in my personal opinion* this would not necessarily be a "reasonable" opportunity. If I reasonably thought that buying a ticket at my interchange station would result in me missing my connection then I would board my second train and expect to be able to pay the appropriate fare that I would have done if there had been a ticket office/machine at my starting point.

I must stress that this is a personal opinion and does not constitute any kind of official advice.

I can add very slightly to this. The Prosecutions Manager for GW^▸ (Great Western) considers three minutes to not be long enough, that is the only example I have for this - although everything is considered on a case by case basis.

[eightf48544]

Don't forget some stations still have a penalty fare machine in which you can put 10p and be spared any hassle.

Especialy if like Taplow you want to pay by cash and the ticket office is closed and the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) only accepts cards.

[paul7575]

I think you meant to write 'permit to travel' (PTT^▸ (Public Time-Table)) machine?

Although they are basically obsolescent, and normally are switched off where they still exist, unless both the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) and ticket office are unavailable/closed.

Paul

[eightf48544]

I think you meant to write 'permit to travel' (PTT^▸ (Public Time-Table)) machine?

Yep meant PTT senior moment!