Arcane fares from Wiltshire to Wales

[whole diary]

[Trowres]

For reasons lost in the mists of time, there are no off-peak fares available between Wiltshire stations on the Portsmouth-Cardiff route and stations west of Cardiff. Taking Swansea as an example, and comparing the offering from Bath and Trowbridge:
From Bath:
Off-peak return (SVR) ^41.70 (permitted on any train, but no outward break of journey)
Anytime day return (SDR) ^39.10
Anytime day single (^32.00)
All the above are set by Arriva Trains Wales
There are also advance fares set by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) from ^11.00 to ^18.50

From Trowbridge:
Anytime return (SOR) ^47.50 set by FGW
Anytime Day single (SDS) ^35.50 set by FGW
That is almost the lot for Trowbridge. It is interesting that the SOR from Trowbridge is priced more or less in line with the SVR, so the lack of an SVR is only a problem if you want Groupsave.

However, we now come to the arcane fares from Trowbridge, which I will put in a separate post as for some reason the edit is going beserk on this post

[Trowres]

There are three other fares quoted from Trowbridge to Swansea:
^17.00, ^21.00, ^26.50 "Route XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) and CONNECTIONS"
I struggled to find trains on which these were available. The NationalRail website's cheapest-fare-finder gave some dates and times when the fare was available (with 2 connections), but clicking on the "details" for the train resulted in the system displaying times for a different set of trains; the normal FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services on which the ticket was not valid.

I then tried the XC website, but this didn't seem to have a facility for finding these fares at all.

Finally, onto the FGW website, and with a bit of effort finding the correct day and time, I did get a journey on which one of the advance fares was available:
Trowbridge-Bristol TM^‡(resolve) (FGW)
Bristol TM-Bristol Parkway (XC)
Bristol Parkway-Swansea (FGW)


How many issues arise from this experience?
1. Historical idiosyncrasies in the range of available fares
2. Confusing terminology like the "off-peak" ticket that's available anytime...unless you wish to break journey.
3. Inconsistent availability of longer-distance day returns
4. Problems with finding/booking the cheapest fares
5. The bizarre situation in which XC set fares for which they operate a tiny proportion of the train mileage involved.

[thetrout]

Allow me to muddy the waters further on this one...

Trowbridge  - Cardiff CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')): ^19.80
Cardiff - Swansea CDR: ^8.30

Total: ^28.10 and valid with Groupsave. Getting Groupsave with that combination could be tricky if any large scale event e.g. Rugby was on at the Millennium Stadium.

I'm wondering if this issue has come about by the type of services available. Bath Spa - Swansea could be covered under BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) predominantly via InterCity Services. (Bath Spa IC^▸ (Inter City) GW^▸ (Great Western) - Bristol Temple Meads - IC XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) - Bristol Parkway - IC GW Swansea).

With the XC AND CONNECTIONS ticket. I can think of 3 examples where this fare may be used: 05:20 BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) - CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains) and 20:15 BRI - CDF are both XC Services. There is also the 06:09 BTH^» (Bath Spa - next trains) - BRI also run by XC.

Don't forget there is also the direct FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HST^▸ (High Speed Train) Service from Bath Spa - Swansea at 06:54. Surprisingly as you say, the SVR is valid on this service, yet there is no First Class Ticket available for that journey at all; when in actuality that train takes just over 2 hours to get to Swansea and DOES have First Class Accomodation.

As the 06:54 is classed as a Peak Train. For a day return you'd still be better off with:

BTH - CDF SDR: ^21.50
CDF - SWA^» (Swansea - next trains) SDR: ^10.30
Total: ^31.80 - Saving ^7.30

Or for a Period Return

BTH - CDF SOR: ^24.30
CDF - SWA SVR: ^14.10 <-- Off Peak Return via by any Train AFAICT^▸ (as far as I can tell).

On the First Class side of things I found:

BTH - CDF FOR: ^58.00
CDF - SWA - FSR^▸ (First Scot Rail): ^24.70 <-- Surprisingly the FSR is valid on the 08:03 CDF - SWA (Same Train as 06:54 from BTH) whereas the FCR at ^17.80 is not...?!!
Total: ^82.70

Ok. Here is a bigger Wiltshire - Wales snag. Chippenham - Swansea at 96 miles:

Standard Class Fares:

CDS^▸ (Off Peak Day Single [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')): ^26.40 - 27p per mile
CDR: ^26.50 <-- 10p more for a return - an extra 96 Miles for 10p costing 0.001 pence per mile... But if you take into account 192 Miles it works out at 0.138 pence per mile

SOS: ^32.00 - 33p per mile
SOR: ^42.50 - 44p per mile when 192 miles taken into account (or an extra 96 Miles for ^10.50 = 11 pence per mile)

The CDR for Chippenham - Swansea is cheaper outside of the Peaks than both the BTH - SWA SVR and Split at CDF/NWP trick with CDRs.

Now here is another weird one:

2 First Class Return Fares:

FSR: ^131.00
FOR: ^206.00

The FSR is valid on all the same trains as the FOR. Rendering from what I can see, the FOR useless. I assume it is because there is an equivant FOS product @ ^103.00 As we all now with FOR, FOS, FDS and FDR products. The Return in most cases is the same as 2x FOS or 2x FDS. The exception to this is FSR and FCR tickets.

[bobm]

Total: ^28.10 and valid with Groupsave. Getting Groupsave with that combination could be tricky if any large scale event e.g. Rugby was on at the Millennium Stadium.

Don't forget you cannot use Groupsave on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services.

[JayMac]

Don't forget you cannot use Groupsave on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services.

As CrossCountry want and will enforce despite NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) condition 10; which says, "Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket."

I know of a group who successfully challenged the UPFNs^▸ (Un Paid Fare Notice (used on XC)) they were issued by XC on this very point, although XC were careful not to admit they were wrong. A grey area and I wouldn't ever suggest using XC on GroupSave when offering fares advice. However, I would side with folk who get chinged by XC and advise them to seek refunds for any additional tickets they'd bought, or to challenge UPFNs.

[readytostart]

In theory it's the validity of the promotional discount rather than the ticket that is the issue here. GroupSave is a promotion that many TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) do not participate in - XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) / EC and ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC)) to name but a few. The point of sale should really inform the traveller on which train operators services the ticket is valid for the journey they are making, though for some routes the combinations could be almost endless.

Maybe, like advance tickets, an information card should be given detailing the operators who are participating, perhaps produced automatically, such as instruction cards for carnets etc.

[JayMac]

Maybe CrossCountry should just participate.

[thetrout]

I've got a similar analogy to buses in Wiltshire I discovered from a Driver earlier this week. I don't have time to type the whole thing now... But I'll create a new thread about it. As it highlights the very issue both BNM and RTS have just raised

[JayMac]

In theory it's the validity of the promotional discount rather than the ticket that is the issue here. GroupSave is a promotion that many TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) do not participate in - XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) / EC and ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC)) to name but a few. The point of sale should really inform the traveller on which train operators services the ticket is valid for the journey they are making, though for some routes the combinations could be almost endless.

That is of course the line taken by the non-participating TOCs. But the only contractual conditions that can possibly apply are Conditions 10 and 12. If the ticket doesn't have the restriction/prohibition printed on it and/or the ticket seller doesn't inform you of a restriction, then the ticket should be accepted.

[Trowres]

We've gone some way off the fares to Wales, but while discussing Groupsave it might be pointed out that the terms and conditions for this offer are also obscure. Various TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) quote the offer in different ways. It's not always apparent that there are occasions when GS can be used with an Anytime Single (in the peak), for example.
Trying to figure out which TOCs accept it isn't particularly easy. There's what looks like a revamped Network Southeast map online, but you have to look very closely to spot the TOCs identified on the map.

[thetrout]

We've gone some way off the fares to Wales, but while discussing Groupsave it might be pointed out that the terms and conditions for this offer are also obscure. Various TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) quote the offer in different ways. It's not always apparent that there are occasions when GS can be used with an Anytime Single (in the peak), for example.
Trying to figure out which TOCs accept it isn't particularly easy. There's what looks like a revamped Network Southeast map online, but you have to look very closely to spot the TOCs identified on the map.

Very interesting point. I once used a Gold Card Discounted Ticket on an East Coast Service, which was accepted without question... Same case with Virgin... Unknown to me at the time... It is not valid on East Coast Trains or Virgin Trains. Except my GOLDC Discounted ticket was marked route: VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY. Looks like I was sold a ticket that I couldn't use... Wouldn't be the first time that has happened