Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
No recent travel & transport from BBC stories as at 11:55 10 Jan 2025
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 24/01/25 - Westbury Station reopens
24/01/25 - LTP4 Wilts / Consultation end
24/01/25 - Bristol Rail Campaign AGM 2025
28/01/25 - Coffee Shop 18th Birthday

On this day
10th Jan (2017)
Defibrillators discussion pack published by Network Rail (link)

Train RunningCancelled
10:15 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
12:50 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
Short Run
07:40 Penzance to Cardiff Central
Delayed
08:15 Penzance to London Paddington
09:52 London Paddington to Hereford
An additional train service has been planned to operate as shown 12:36 Bristol Temple Meads to Cardiff Central
PollsThere are no open or recent polls
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
January 10, 2025, 12:09:19 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[141] Ryanair sues 'unruly' passenger over flight diversion
[83] Mick Lynch announces retirement as head of RMT
[66] Westminster Hall debate : Railway services to South West
[32] A Beginner's Guide to the Great Western "Coffee Shop" Passenge...
[31] Thumpers for Dummies
[23] Bristol Rail Campaign AGM 2025
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
Author Topic: Another interesting quote on fares  (Read 20028 times)
devon_metro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5175



View Profile
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2013, 20:09:09 »

An SSR is a Super Off Peak return. Valid outward on the day of travel printed any time after 06:40, return with in a month, not valid Mondays-Fridays leaving London Paddington before 10:03 or between 15:10 and 19:01. A Super Off Peak single with the same restrictions is ^58.50. 2X is the restriction code, it gives details on what trains the ticket is valid on.

Evening peak restrictions to the far South West are different I believe, only the 1703 Pad - Pnz is considered a 'peak' train. (obviously if you went via Bristol the restrictions would apply)
Logged
Super Guard
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1308


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2013, 20:38:42 »

Correct, but SSR's are still only valid from 1901 onwards.  1703 is only "Peak" West-country train, 1803 is peak through to Exeter - SVR's are then valid beyond.
Logged

Any opinions made on this forum are purely personal and my own.  I am in no way speaking for, or offering the views of First Great Western or First Group.

If my employer feels I have broken any aspect of the Social Media Policy, please PM me immediately, so I can rectify without delay.
Southern Stag
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 984


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2013, 20:45:08 »

Thanks SS.  So neither fare conforms to the conditions set by Calder.  These are, remember, one walks into a station and says ticket to Z.  Clerk sells you ticket, you walk onto platform and get train to Z.  FTN gets to Severn beach for ^3 but one has to buy a return apparently.  How about just going to Severn Beach?  In fact I just looked it up and it's ^2.

Before I write to Mr Calder, does anyone know whether straightforward single tickets are not priced at a standard walk on fare price?  Judging from examples on this thread, there seems to be no standard price?
Well it depends on what time he goes in the ticket office. If you walk in to Penzance ticket office at 0950 for the 1000 to London Paddington and ask for a single you'll pay ^58.50. If you want to catch the 0505 you'll pay ^137.50 though.
Logged
swrural
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 647


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2013, 15:16:56 »

So there is no example above that disputes Simon Calder's example, except Severn Beach (Huh), and that even standard singles are priced all over the place.  I picked this up today.

http://www.seat61.com/uk-europe-train-fares-comparison.html#.UOWeTtc4Wyd

cited by Railway Eye

http://railwayeye.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/so-just-how-expensive-are-uk-rail-fares.html

 as confounding the Calder exercise.  In fact of course it does not (just look down the list to the 'bought on the day' comparison).  Not only that but notice how the ATOC» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) people play around with peak travel prices whereas the continental cousins do not. 

Super Guard has already pointed out problems of the 'peak' rules even with the non-complying examples given by colleagues.  What a nightmare and no wonder only those who do not look at cost, or those who don't have to, on expenses, would be daft enough to walk into a railway station and buy a 'to go' single ticket, except for local journeys where perhaps LA subsidies are operated (is that what is happening with Severn Beach?).  No wonder Mr Hammond said the trains are a rich man's extravagance.   Angry   Angry


Edited to enable links. bignosemac
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 21:55:10 by bignosemac » Logged
Southern Stag
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 984


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2013, 17:11:58 »

I'm not quite sure what these conditions Simon Calder has set. I suspect there are plenty of fares you can find which are under 16p per mile though. Walk-up fares do vary wildly depending on the route, largely for historical reasons. The Cotswold Line for example has lower walk up fares because it does not have any advance fares available. The fares system is largely what was inherited from BR (British Rail(ways)) when it comes to peak time restrictions and the small difference between single and return fares. FGW (First Great Western) did lower long distance single fares to London to a little over half the price of a return when they introduced a third tier of pricing, with Off Peak prices renamed to Super Off Peak with Off Peak fares introduced between Super Off Peak and Anytime. The main change under privatisation has been the increase in long distance walk-up fares with the introduction of many more cheap Advance fares. The ever increasing walk-up fares are by and large a government policy decision though, they want the railway to contribute more to its own costs with reducing public subsidy. Achieving this means fare rises as the alternative of service cuts wouldn't be acceptable, of course there is an increasing focus on efficiency gains now. Fares are never going to reduce until the government decides as a matter of policy that the railways are a public service that requires a level of subsidy, which is effectively the decision taken in other European countries which allows for lower fares.
Logged
TonyK
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6594


The artist formerly known as Four Track, Now!


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2013, 18:08:12 »

The Severn Beach line is subsidised, but not heavily. It was dying a death prior to 2007, with an irregular and often unreliable service that saw huge gaps at times of the day between services. It was not practical to use it to commute. In 2005, a report for Transport Minister Alistair Darling (by Atkins!) proposed ripping it up for a BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) route. FOSBR (Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways) and others expressed strong views to the local councils, and in 2007, Bristol City Council agreed a subsidy of ^450,000 pa for 3 years, to provide at least 3tp2h, from the start of the new timetable in May 2008. For the first time ever, a Sunday service to Avonmouth was run. The line was designated a Community Rail Service.

A very simple zonal fare structure was put into place, with two zones, one either side of Clifton Down. Travel in one zone costs ^1.50 single, ^2.00 return, and for two zones - the whole line from SVB to BRI» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) - the cost is ^2.00 single, ^3.00 return, with a weekly unlimited pass costing ^9.00. This meant a rise in some fares between one or two stations, but a substantial cut in most fares. It is considerably cheaper than bus travel over the same routes, as well as much faster. Severn Beach has one bus each way daily into Bristol centre, taking an hour, and costing ^7.50 return. There are 11 trains from Severn Beach (24 from Avonmouth), taking 35 to 40 minutes.

Whether the intention was to prove that even with subsidy, the line was not profitable, I do not know. However, the opposite happened, and passenger numbers soared. From 2010, with support from South Glos DC (Direct Current), the Sunday service was extended to Severn Beach. In 2011, the council was able to reduce the subsidy to ^200,000, even with an extra evening service from September 2012. The line is so busy at peak times that conductors can't get to everyone. As only Temple Meads has gated platforms, many journeys are freebies. Advance ticket sales would provide additional revenue, possibly even turning an operating profit, but the only TVM (Ticket Vending Machine) along the route, at Clifton Down, was in a sorry state the last time I saw it.

The future looks bright. The subsidy can be seen as pump-priming rather than propping up, and the intention is for any subsidy for off-peak and Sunday service to transfer to DfT» (Department for Transport - about) to provide. As a test-bed for new commuter services, it has proved its worth, and has done much to kick-start the Greater Bristol Metro project. The first new railway station in the Bristol Area for 17 years should be open this year at the Portway Park and Ride. It isn't scheduled for electrification under the GWML (Great Western Main Line) project, but once all the planned works around the country are done, FOSBR, Severnside Community Rail Partnership and others will try to get it done in the next tranche, I'm sure.

Thank goodness for the stink kicked up in 2005. I am not a fan of BRT, and what WEP are proposing to waste on the Bristol area BRT projects would keep the Severn Beach line running for a thousand years. It just goes to show what you can do when you try to price people onto rail rather than pricing them off it, at least for local travel.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 18:13:21 by Four Track, Now! » Logged

Now, please!
swrural
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 647


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2013, 19:25:07 »

FTN

Totally agree with last para.

SS if you looked back over the thread you would have seen that the issue is 'walk on' fares.  In other words just walking into a station and buying a single for a destination 100 miles away.  As FTN points out, in Bristol (and a lot of local journeys elsewhere) it can be cheap, very cheap. 

As the examples above shewed, it's a different story for inter city.  FTN and others have pointed out the politics of this situation but that is of zero interest to the punter, especially when there is competition from both road (coach and car).

I don't think rail has to compete with air as this is only usually when there is substantial seawater between or the distances are well over 100 miles.

I've just looked up Bristol to Paddington and it's ^93.50 or (strangely) ^96.50 with no apparent reason why they differ.  That is huge, I mean huge.  No ordinary person on average wage could contemplate paying that.  In fairness there was no difference in the peak, as far as I could detect.  So I then discover that according to which train I chose outside the peak I could go for ^30.50.  That's better but the coach would be competitive I suspect.  I hope I may assume that the clerk, when confronted with a passenger outside the peak, would not sell a ^96.50 ticket but would always sell the cheapest?  Still roughly 25p per mile though.  My wife and I went from Rome to Salerno first class by fast train for that on a Friday at 1630!!
Logged
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 19245



View Profile
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2013, 19:52:37 »

I've just looked up Bristol to Paddington and it's ^93.50 or (strangely) ^96.50 with no apparent reason why they differ.

^93.50 is the Anytime Single to London Terminals route: Any Permitted. ^96.50 is the Anytime Single to Zone U1* London (ie any underground station in Zone 1) route: Any Permitted.
Logged

"A clear conscience laughs at a false accusation."
"Treat everyone the same until you find out they're an idiot."
"Moral indignation is a technique used to endow the idiot with dignity."
Southern Stag
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 984


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2013, 21:29:37 »

SS if you looked back over the thread you would have seen that the issue is 'walk on' fares.  In other words just walking into a station and buying a single for a destination 100 miles away.  As FTN points out, in Bristol (and a lot of local journeys elsewhere) it can be cheap, very cheap. 
It still depends on the time of course. A single from Penzance to London after 0640 seems like good value at ^58.50 to me. By the most direct route (305 miles) it comes out at about 19p per mile. A single from Penzance to Totnes after 0840, 102 miles in distance is even better value at ^16.40, around 16p per mile. The cost of walk up tickets does vary across different routes. I don't know if there are similar situations across Europe or not. It's hard to tell how reliable a comparison of fares across Europe is if all we are presented with is the findings but not the research and methodology behind it. There are cheaper and more expensive routes in this country, and there may well be in Europe to. It would be useful to know what routes were chosen to compare and why. I've no doubt that there are plenty of routes in this country that are more expensive than those in Europe, but there are probably some which are cheaper too.
Logged
old original
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 901


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2013, 21:39:18 »

This is where FGW (First Great Western) must take some credit, in making the single a lot cheaper than the equivelent return rather than just a pound or so as from other TOCs (Train Operating Company)
Logged

8 Billion people on a wet rock - of course we're not happy
TonyK
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6594


The artist formerly known as Four Track, Now!


View Profile
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2013, 21:44:29 »

I'll start with France, and in particular Paris Gare de Lyon to Nice Ville, 577 miles. Cost is ^98.50 to ^118.00 1-way, or about 17p to 20.5p per mile. My source is Voyages-SNCF (Societe Nationale des Chemins de fer Francais - French National Railways).com. Given the journey is long distance between a capital city and a leading resort for very rich people to ponce around in, that seems good value.
Logged

Now, please!
ellendune
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4505


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2013, 23:11:25 »

I'll start with France, and in particular Paris Gare de Lyon to Nice Ville, 577 miles. Cost is ^98.50 to ^118.00 1-way, or about 17p to 20.5p per mile. My source is Voyages-SNCF (Societe Nationale des Chemins de fer Francais - French National Railways).com. Given the journey is long distance between a capital city and a leading resort for very rich people to ponce around in, that seems good value.

Are season tickets in France the same sort of discount as in this country?

Logged
thetrout
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2612



View Profile
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2013, 03:19:50 »

I've got one for 24p per mile...

Penzance - Wick via London and Thurso (Train calls at Thurso first)

^233.50 Super Off-Peak Single Route: VIA LONDON - Journey: Penzance - London - Edinburgh - Inverness - Wick = 972 Railway Miles (Or there abouts!) = 24p per mile!

A more expensive Anytime Single @ ^268.50 seemed to bar travel on trains via London, despite not showing a route restriction via london on WebTIS Booking Engines. (Maybe because the cheaper ^233.50 is via London only?) There is also an SOS route: VIA LONDON @ ^262. But as the booking only shows 4 trains as an option. The Super Off-Peak Single is valid on the same 2 the SOS is valid on... Perhaps rendering the SOS pointless?

All other journeys I could find averaged around 40p per mile even for journeys upto 250 miles for ^100 or less.
Logged

Grin Grin Grin Grin
ellendune
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4505


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2013, 18:44:58 »

All other journeys I could find averaged around 40p per mile even for journeys upto 250 miles for ^100 or less.

So why is the Anytime return from Swindon to Paddington 76p per mile? (^117 for 2 x 77 miles).
Logged
swrural
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 647


View Profile
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2013, 19:00:02 »

All other journeys I could find averaged around 40p per mile even for journeys upto 250 miles for ^100 or less.

So why is the Anytime return from Swindon to Paddington 76p per mile? (^117 for 2 x 77 miles).

Indeed.  I looked up Rome to Salerno and it is over 150 miles.  The cost was ^33.50 (about ^27) and that was first class on a Friday departing from Termini at 1630 (in other words the peak of peaks).  So we are talking about 18p per mile walk on fare.  Now admittedly I did book it the night before to ensure getting a seat (it was rammed) and did so on the return, although it was a bit roomier and I needn't have done so.  Beat that for a standard, non-fiddling-about with peak discouragement or off-peak encouragement.  As Simon Calder pointed out, you need to go from the extreme north of the country to the outlying island of Sicily to spend anywhere near ^100.   (Our trip was in 2011 so perhaps a bit dearer now).  The Man in Seat 61 is expert on EU» (European Union - about) fares and would have pointed out any excuses for ATOC» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here).  In fact, his article was meant to prove that Calder was wrong but did the opposite.

By the way, first class in Italy only costs one third more than second.
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page