Maidenhead passengers overcharged for First Class upgrade (merged discussion)

[whole diary]

[EBrown]

Interesting, Is this only for season tickets?

No, all 1ST class ticket come without the guarantee of a seat. Unless of course you have a seat reservation - which still isn't really a guarantee of a seat, but FGW^▸ (First Great Western) will refund as a good will gesture on standard class seats as a minimum if you are unable to have a seat.

I've had a few refunds of the difference between 1ST and STD where I've purchased a First Class Walk Up ticket and then not been able to get a seat in First Class

Good will gesture.

Also had them when TM^‡(resolve)'s have Declassified First Class.

Requirement under the CoC^▸ (Chamber of Commerce TBA) to refund the difference between ticket costs when First is declassified. The CoC also changed the 'rules' for when to declassify in the recent update to May 12.

As I am reasonably sure I've seen in multiple places that refunds of the difference are given between First and Standard Class Tickets where a Passenger has a First Class Ticket and has to plonk themselves down in Standard assuming they can even do that

Many TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) will as a goodwill gesture. It's not a requirement. 1ST ticket holders are allowed to use STD if they so wish.

Or have I just been receiving Good Will Gestures?

Yes, very much so.

[inspector_blakey]

Would you mind expanding a bit on the points below? Not so much that I doubt you, more that it would help me to understand if you could "show your working", to use the old chestnut from exam questions...

Requirement under the CoC^▸ (Chamber of Commerce TBA) to refund the difference between ticket costs when First is declassified. The CoC also changed the 'rules' for when to declassify in the recent update to May 12.

I haven't trawled in exhaustive detail through the CoC, but at a fairly brief reading I can't find anything that indicates passengers are entitled to a refund should FC^‡(resolve) be declassified. The only thing that might *suggest* this, as I read it, is Condition 38 (with my italics):

38. Travelling in standard class accommodation with a first class ticket
If you have a first class ticket (or the equivalent) and the first class accommodation (or the equivalent) shown in the National Rail Timetable is not available in any train you travel in, you may claim a refund of the difference in price between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey.

Are you reading this as saying that declassifying FC constitutes an absence of FC accommodation on a given service? If so I can see where you're coming from but it may come down to a matter of interpretation. The waters could be further muddied because, in my experience and in practice, when I've been on Intercity trains with FC declassified there has generally been one coach kept "classified" for FC ticket holders. In general on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) that's meant that F and G were opened to standard class passengers, but H has been kept for the use of FC ticket holders. In that case I doubt any refund would be due.

And could you explain where you get the bit about 'the "rules" for when to declassify'? Again, I can find nothing in the CoC. Nor can I find any instructions in the staff section of the fares manual dealing with train accommodation, reservations or compensation. My hunch is that this decisions around declassifying FC would be a commercial decision for individual operators to make and issue the appropriate local instructions to staff. It's probably not what you're referring to, but the instructions about seeking permission from staff to occupy FC with a standard class ticket, staff not giving that permission unless they are satisfied standard is full, and the requirement for a standard ticket holder to absent themselves from FC when standard accommodation becomes available have always been there.

[EBrown]

Would you mind expanding a bit on the points below?

I haven't trawled in exhaustive detail through the CoC^▸ (Chamber of Commerce TBA), but at a fairly brief reading I can't find anything that indicates passengers are entitled to a refund should FC^‡(resolve) be declassified. The only thing that might *suggest* this...is Condition 38

Are you reading this as saying that declassifying FC constitutes an absence of FC accommodation on a given service? If so I can see where you're coming from but it may come down to a matter of interpretation.

And could you explain where you get the bit about 'the "rules" for when to declassify'? Again, I can find nothing in the CoC. Nor can I find any instructions in the staff section of the fares manual dealing with train accommodation, reservations or compensation.

I certainly don't mind clarifying, this is starting to become smoke and mirrors!

[Opens can of worms...]

Train managers are not allowed to 'declassify' 1ST under the new CoC - unless no one is using it. This means no (part) refunds are required to First class passengers.

The exact quote is or if you like the rules for on-train staff to declassify:

On-train staff will not give you permission to use first class accommodation (or the equivalent) unless they are satisfied that it is not required by anyone with a first class ticket and the standard class accommodation on the train is full. This permission may be withdrawn if a person holding a first class ticket requires the accommodation during your journey or standard class accommodation becomes available.

Actually declassifying...
So, the only way a train can be 'properly' declassified is by the operator. This is a change to the scheduled timetable meaning that the section you quoted above applies (as there is no first class service on that timetabled train) - you are therefore entitled to a refund between the difference in ticket price under condition 38.

Loophole
Virgin for example regularly declassify one carriage of first class on packed evening services, that carriage isn't occupied by 1ST users (They use one of the alternate carriages - and get the remainder of First class services [food, drink ...] ). You will not get a refund in these circumstances.
(God knows why, this bit even confuses me).



Does that make this rather confusing topic any clearer or not? It was so much simpler under the old CoC.

[NickB]

It is these instances of 'interpretation' that make train travel so frustrating! 

- I have in writing a statement from FGW^▸ (First Great Western) that because I could not travel in 1st class due to overcrowding I am entitled to a refund.
- I also have in writing from FGW a statement that overcrowding does not entitle me to a refund (subsequently investigated for 9months by Passenger Focus)
- I have in writing from Passenger Focus quoting FGW that standing in 1st class for 20mins entitles you to a refund.
- I have a response in writing from Passenger Focus quoting FGW that declassification will lead to a refund under CoC^▸ (Chamber of Commerce TBA)
- I have claimed for a refund under CoC (within the past 2 months) for declassification.  The declassification was done by the train manager and was due to overcrowding in Standard.

 

[JayMac]

Although the text is now missing from the latest Conditions of Carriage, Train Companies can still give you more extensive rights than the minimum laid down by the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage). This is often codified into their Passenger Charters.

To that end it is still acceptable for a guard to make a decision based on the best interests of the passengers on his or her train and declassify 1st Class. Without seeking higher authority or only doing the minimum as laid down by NRCoC.

I don't agree with Ebrown's interpretation that only the 'operator' can declassify. 'Accommodation' doesn't have to refer to the whole of 1st Class, it could just be one seat. Someone 'bumped up' by a guard, for example.

Inferring that on train staff can no longer declassify 1st Class by the wording of the NRCoC seems wide of the mark to me and will be news to guards/conductors/train managers everywhere.

[inspector_blakey]

Does that make this rather confusing topic any clearer or not? It was so much simpler under the old CoC^▸ (Chamber of Commerce TBA).

Not really, I'm afraid. I'm going to suggest, respectfully, that you're mistaken here. The CoC prior to May 2012 said this:

39. Travelling in first class accommodation with a standard class ticketIf you have a standard class ticket (other than a Season Ticket), no standard class
accommodation is available, and ticket staff on that train give their permission, then you
may travel in first class accommodation (or the equivalent) where this is available without
extra charge.
On-train ticket staff will not give you permission to use first class accommodation (or the
equivalent) unless they are satisfied that it is not required by anyone with a first class
ticket and the standard class accommodation on the train is full. This permission may be
withdrawn if a person holding a first class ticket requires the accommodation during your
journey or standard class accommodation becomes available.

The current version says this:

39. Travelling in first class accommodation with a standard class ticket
If you have a standard class ticket (other than a Season Ticket), no standard class accommodation is available, and staff on that train give their permission, then you may travel in first class accommodation (or the equivalent) where this is available without extra charge.
On-train staff will not give you permission to use first class accommodation (or the equivalent) unless they are satisfied that it is not required by anyone with a first class ticket and the standard class accommodation on the train is full. This permission may be withdrawn if a person holding a first class ticket requires the accommodation during your journey or standard class accommodation becomes available.

They're identical. This did not change in May 2012, and although I'm only relying on my memory (I can't find any older verions of the CoC prior to 2011 to back me up) I'm as sure as I can be that the wording here has been the same for years.

I agree with bnm that I don't see anything in here that prevents a train manager from declassifying first class at all. I remain convinced that it's a commercial decision for an operator to make dependent on the circumstances. I wouldn't regard declassifying certain vehicles as a loophole either.

Really sorry, but I think you've got this one wrong.

[paul7575]

The thing is though, that even if a TM^‡(resolve) lets a certain passenger or passengers sit in first under those rules he is not 'declassifying' the whole first area as far as I can see.  The latter would mean all passengers on the train can now use the whole of first class.  The TM's discretion is not universal, he is simply instructing certain passengers to sit in first as a solution to their particular problem, but he is not necessarily allowing all the other passengers who have happily got seats in standard to make their own way to first, which is what declassification would mean?

Paul

[thetrout]

I'm inclined to disagree with EBrown as well (sorry gov'ner) To his credit, the Passenger Charter does hint that EBrown is correct that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are offering above and beyond the requirements of the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage). But I'm not 100% sure.

Going back to my 1C97 incident... I was the only one in Coach F who had a First Class Ticket. Infact the only First Class Passengers from Paddington I could count on 1 hand. To the credit of a fellow occupant, He paid excess once the TM^‡(resolve) got through just before Newbury. The conversation was one of "Can I upgrade please" and not "This is a Standard Ticket, you'll need to upgrade for XX amount"

However other pax who had no ticket at all (or ones that were certainly not valid) where only charged Standard Class Fares.

To be fair. I was holding a very much discounted ticket in the form of a First Class ^5 Gold Card Supplement. But held the return portion of a FSR^▸ (First Scot Rail) from Newbury - Frome which was actually more than my SOV - NBY^» (Newbury - next trains) SVR Ticket!

That being said. I'm loathed to look at it like that. You can hold a First Class Ticket for 5p... If it's valid on the train your on, it's still a First Class Ticket. End of story.


But back to the argument of First Class being full I did find this from the FGW Passenger Charter June 2012 Edition here: which has this extract - My emphasis in bold:

Getting a seat

Whilst the purchase of a ticket does not guarantee a seat, we plan services so that customers boarding trains should be able to obtain a seat in normal circumstances.You should not have to stand on our trains during Off-Peak times, and during Peak times you should not normally have to stand for more than 20 minutes (or more than one station stop if this is longer). If you hold a First Class ticket for a high speed service and have to stand for more than 20 minutes (or more than one stop where this is longer than 20 minutes), we will refund you in National Rail vouchers the difference between the cost of your First Class ticket for the affected leg of your journey and the corresponding Standard ticket. To claim your refund, you must contact a member of the on-board staff at the time of travel for verification, and then make your claim by contacting our Customer Services team. (Address available on page 23).

[gpn01]

I'm inclined to disagree with EBrown as well (sorry gov'ner) To his credit, the Passenger Charter does hint that EBrown is correct that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are offering above and beyond the requirements of the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage). But I'm not 100% sure.

Going back to my 1C97 incident... I was the only one in Coach F who had a First Class Ticket. Infact the only First Class Passengers from Paddington I could count on 1 hand. To the credit of a fellow occupant, He paid excess once the TM^‡(resolve) got through just before Newbury. The conversation was one of "Can I upgrade please" and not "This is a Standard Ticket, you'll need to upgrade for XX amount"

However other pax who had no ticket at all (or ones that were certainly not valid) where only charged Standard Class Fares.

To be fair. I was holding a very much discounted ticket in the form of a First Class ^5 Gold Card Supplement. But held the return portion of a FSR^▸ (First Scot Rail) from Newbury - Frome which was actually more than my SOV - NBY^» (Newbury - next trains) SVR Ticket!

That being said. I'm loathed to look at it like that. You can hold a First Class Ticket for 5p... If it's valid on the train your on, it's still a First Class Ticket. End of story.


But back to the argument of First Class being full I did find this from the FGW Passenger Charter June 2012 Edition here: which has this extract - My emphasis in bold:

Getting a seat

Whilst the purchase of a ticket does not guarantee a seat, we plan services so that customers boarding trains should be able to obtain a seat in normal circumstances.You should not have to stand on our trains during Off-Peak times, and during Peak times you should not normally have to stand for more than 20 minutes (or more than one station stop if this is longer). If you hold a First Class ticket for a high speed service and have to stand for more than 20 minutes (or more than one stop where this is longer than 20 minutes), we will refund you in National Rail vouchers the difference between the cost of your First Class ticket for the affected leg of your journey and the corresponding Standard ticket. To claim your refund, you must contact a member of the on-board staff at the time of travel for verification, and then make your claim by contacting our Customer Services team. (Address available on page 23).

What really winds me up is what happened this mroning - 07:03 Maidenhead-Paddington was delayed and was somewhat overcrowded.  It was standing room only in 1st class (for which I had a valid ticket).  In fact 1st class was so full I couldn't even get into it to stand up in!.  How do I attract the attention of a member of  train staff (it's a turbo unit so the only member of staff is the driver who's at the front and probably a bit busy).  So how do I get a refund?

[thetrout]

Agree with the annoyance there... Been in similar situations before even on trains with a guard etc!

But is a Maidenhead - Paddington turbo classed as a High Speed Service aka InterCity? Whilst the passenger charter states that it only covers HSS^▸ (High Speed Services). My personal view is it should cover all trains FGW^▸ (First Great Western) convey First Class Accommodation for their passengers! The cynic in me says that would be too simple

[johoare]

gpn01.. that happened to me the other day too on a turbo.. Now if only they would do a ticket check occasionally on these trains.. As I am sure there were enough First class seats for those with First class tickets 

[EBrown]

Not really, I'm afraid. I'm going to suggest, respectfully, that you're mistaken here. The CoC^▸ (Chamber of Commerce TBA) prior to May 2012 said this:

It does seem I got that part wrong. My apologies to anyone that confused.

Given the 'confusing' matter of this, I will (eventually) write to National Rail (RSP Ltd) to seek a clarification on this. I will let you know of the result either way (I'll happily accept I'm wrong at that point or rub your noses in it [because I'd get the same from you] ).

[NickB]

Agree with the annoyance there... Been in similar situations before even on trains with a guard etc!

But is a Maidenhead - Paddington turbo classed as a High Speed Service aka InterCity? Whilst the passenger charter states that it only covers HSS^▸ (High Speed Services). My personal view is it should cover all trains FGW^▸ (First Great Western) convey First Class Accommodation for their passengers! The cynic in me says that would be too simple

And this was precisely my query to FGW.  I was only on a Turbo (7.18) because the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) (7.08) had been cancelled so in my view having to stand for 20+mins represented a breach of FGW's Passenger Charter.  Their response was that Turbo's do not qualify for refunds for standing with a 1st class ticket - only HST's. 

Which begs the question, why are Turbo services classified as having 1st class accommodation at all?  There is no catering, no paper, no table to work at (so actually less provision than some standard class carriages), no enforcement of tickets, and definitely no guarantee of a seat?

[gpn01]

Agree with the annoyance there... Been in similar situations before even on trains with a guard etc!

But is a Maidenhead - Paddington turbo classed as a High Speed Service aka InterCity? Whilst the passenger charter states that it only covers HSS^▸ (High Speed Services). My personal view is it should cover all trains FGW^▸ (First Great Western) convey First Class Accommodation for their passengers! The cynic in me says that would be too simple

And this was precisely my query to FGW.  I was only on a Turbo (7.18) because the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) (7.08) had been cancelled so in my view having to stand for 20+mins represented a breach of FGW's Passenger Charter.  Their response was that Turbo's do not qualify for refunds for standing with a 1st class ticket - only HST's. 

Which begs the question, why are Turbo services classified as having 1st class accommodation at all?  There is no catering, no paper, no table to work at (so actually less provision than some standard class carriages), no enforcement of tickets, and definitely no guarantee of a seat?

Dumb question time, driven by the fact that I've ended up on the overcrowded 07:03 twice now because of a cancelled/delayed 07:08.....How do we get the passenger charter rewritten?

[johoare]

Sooo... I think FGW^▸ (First Great Western) need to tell us why they are selling people these First Class tickets (eastbound only) from Twyford and Maidenhead yet they aren't giving us the ability to then necessarily use these tickets (well there are only two trains out of quite a few each morning for Maidenhead for example that it is worth using them on (when they run as planned that is.. otherwise less than 2)).. I've still got no reply from FGW to how this is right...the passengers kind of know it's wrong...