Maidenhead passengers overcharged for First Class upgrade (merged discussion)

[whole diary]

[EBrown]

I think FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are supposed to answer faster than that.. I thought it was supposed to be within 5 days usually..Although they may be overwhelmed with complaints I guess.. Might be worth re-sending it?

I have the same query in (and others) - currently there is a high volume of complaints and it's "awaiting a response from head office". GW^▸ (Great Western) aim to respond in 5 days, there is no obligation to.

[JayMac]

From the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Passenger's Charter:

We will answer all written comments from  customers within five working days of receiving them. If it takes longer to make the necessary enquiries we will send you an initial acknowledgement within five working days and a full reply within 20 working days.

That says 'we will' and not 'we aim'. Although if a missive is sent by email then I suspect an auto-response will be sufficient as 'initial acknowledgement'. Posted missives should have a response sent out within five working days, either an acknowledgement or full response.

However, even with 'we will', there is no statutory obligation on FGW to adhere to what they say. Apart the rights already covered by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, everything in a TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) Passenger Charter is merely an aspiration. And arguably not worth the paper it is written on.

[EBrown]

That says 'we will' and not 'we aim'. Although if a missive is sent by email then I suspect an auto-response will be sufficient as 'initial acknowledgement'. Posted missives should have a response sent out within five working days, either an acknowledgement or full response.

However, even with 'we will', there is no statutory obligation on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to adhere to what they say. Apart the rights already covered by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, everything in a TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) Passenger Charter is merely an aspiration. And arguably not worth the paper it is written on.

The autoresponse... (As I said earlier...gospel... )

Thank you for contacting First Great Western. We confirm receipt of your e-mail and aim to forward a full response within 5 working days. If you have a more urgent issue that needs resolving or your enquiry relates to travel during the current weather conditions, please refer to our website for the most up to date information. http://www.journeycheck.com/firstgreatwestern. Alternatively you can call customer services on 08457 000125 where we will try to give a faster resolution or contact us via Twitter using @FGW.

Please be aware that due to the recent disruption caused by severe weather we have received high volumes of correspondence and therefore our response may take longer than 5 days.

Please note that you will not be able to reply direct to this email, however if you wish to contact us further by email then please use the address below.

fgw.feedback@firstgroup.com

I'll add, when I've sent in writing my issues/comments, I have always received a very similar email to the above to the (email) address I had listed.

[NickB]

Yes I feel a little aggrieved by the lack of response.  I have sent two chasers to date which curiously get logged as new tickets - which can't help their stats!?!

As an aside, those are some interesting observations about the conflict between National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Passengers Charter.  I had a long running dispute with FGW in 2011 along the line that National Rail CoC^▸ (Chamber of Commerce TBA) says if you have a 1st class ticket and can't get a seat "on any train" you can get a refund, but FGW says this doesn't apply to 'Turbo' services.  I took this through appeal and through Passenger Focus and in the end FGW told me their Passenger Charter took priority and (politely) to go and play in the traffic.

Either way, its Meet The Manager at Paddington tonight.   

[EBrown]

You could always email the Fares Strategy Manager (Chris.Brock@firstgroup.com) - he's a decent chap. You're likely to get a more cut and dry response than you would from Customer Relations. (That is to say; it went up because of X. Thanks for getting in contact)

[NickB]

After 3 weeks I had an email AND a phonecall from FGW^▸ (First Great Western) this morning. 
The verdict: FGW prices are incorrect and I'm due a ^184 refund.

How these prices were allowed to be published wasn't explained, and the same error is on 2012 and 2013 prices.

I asked whether FGW would be contacting everyone affected but apparently this is not possible, even when everyone affected has a photocard and registered address.  So its off to the press for me, and a quest to find as many people due refunds as possible!

Happy days.

Incidentally I've also worked out that FGW charge an extra 25% for London Underground travel with a First Class Eastbound ticket than with a standard ticket, and 1st both ways.

Difference between Maidenhead-->Paddington Standard with Underground and without Underground = ^712
Difference between Maidenhead-->Paddington 1st Eastbound with Underground and without Underground = ^888
Difference between Maidenhead-->Paddington 1st Class with Underground and without Underground = ^712

Cynical or criminal.  Bit of both in my view.

[johoare]

Wow well done Nick.. It did look wrong to me so I am glad they have admitted it..

But they must know all their passengers details surely? Or is it just annual season ticket holders that they have contact information for? Hopefully someone on here will know that as I don't expect you to 

[Network SouthEast]

Wow well done Nick.. It did look wrong to me so I am glad they have admitted it..

But they must know all their passengers details surely? Or is it just annual season ticket holders that they have contact information for? Hopefully someone on here will know that as I don't expect you to 

As all you need for a weekly or a monthly is a simple photocard, then I don't think it is unreasonable for them to not have contact information. It's only within recent times that photocards have even had barcodes on them!

[inspector_blakey]

As an aside, those are some interesting observations about the conflict between National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Passengers Charter.  I had a long running dispute with FGW in 2011 along the line that National Rail CoC^▸ (Chamber of Commerce TBA) says if you have a 1st class ticket and can't get a seat "on any train" you can get a refund, but FGW says this doesn't apply to 'Turbo' services.  I took this through appeal and through Passenger Focus and in the end FGW told me their Passenger Charter took priority and (politely) to go and play in the traffic.

If FGW really did say that the Passenger's Charter takes precedence over the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) then that's highly irregular: the NRCoC are absolutely explicit that they set out the minimum standard of service to which you are entitled, and that a train company may not take any of those rights away from you. From the introduction (my emphasis):

These National Rail Conditions of Carriage set out your rights and any restrictions of those rights. The Train Companies may give you more extensive rights than those set out here; they may not give you less unless, in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets, a Condition specifically allows for this. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage therefore set out the minimum level of service you are entitled to expect.

However, in this case the only Condition I can find that relates to travelling in standard with a first class ticket is number 38:

38. Travelling in standard class accommodation with a first class ticket
If you have a first class ticket (or the equivalent) and the first class accommodation (or the equivalent) shown in the National Rail Timetable is not available in any train you travel in, you may claim a refund of the difference in price between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey.

There's a bit of wriggle room for the operator here: it's possible to read it as first class not being provided (so a unit with only standard class seating working a service that's advertised as having first class available in the GBTT^▸ (Great British Time Table)) rather than simply full. However, I have no concept of how FGW can twist that to mean that the refund rights do apply to HST^▸ (High Speed Train)/180-operated services and not Turbos.

[johoare]

Wow well done Nick.. It did look wrong to me so I am glad they have admitted it..

But they must know all their passengers details surely? Or is it just annual season ticket holders that they have contact information for? Hopefully someone on here will know that as I don't expect you to 

As all you need for a weekly or a monthly is a simple photocard, then I don't think it is unreasonable for them to not have contact information. It's only within recent times that photocards have even had barcodes on them!

That is what I thought... I think in the past thought, when I've had an Annual ticket, they do have my details.. And the problem here appears to be (though may not be restricted to) an annual ticket renewal..

[EBrown]

I had a long running dispute with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) in 2011 along the line that National Rail CoC^▸ (Chamber of Commerce TBA) says if you have a 1st class ticket and can't get a seat "on any train" you can get a refund, but FGW says this doesn't apply to 'Turbo' services.  I took this through appeal and through Passenger Focus and in the end FGW told me their Passenger Charter took priority and (politely) to go and play in the traffic.

That's not how the conditions of carriage read at all. A 1ST class ticket doesn't guarantee a seat, so you have to suck it up and stand in the first class section.

You're wrongly stirring here.

[grahame]

I had a long running dispute with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) in 2011 along the line that National Rail CoC^▸ (Chamber of Commerce TBA) says if you have a 1st class ticket and can't get a seat "on any train" you can get a refund, but FGW says this doesn't apply to 'Turbo' services.  I took this through appeal and through Passenger Focus and in the end FGW told me their Passenger Charter took priority and (politely) to go and play in the traffic.

That's not how the conditions of carriage read at all. A 1ST class ticket doesn't guarantee a seat, so you have to suck it up and stand in the first class section.

You're wrongly stirring here.

Under CoC, I know you're right EBrown.   Morally, by paying extra for First Class (especially on a service without catering), you're paying in addition to the standard fare in the anticipation of additional space / comfort, and if you don't get it you shouldn't end up being out of pocket by that additional amount.

[NickB]

I had a long running dispute with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) in 2011 along the line that National Rail CoC^▸ (Chamber of Commerce TBA) says if you have a 1st class ticket and can't get a seat "on any train" you can get a refund, but FGW says this doesn't apply to 'Turbo' services.  I took this through appeal and through Passenger Focus and in the end FGW told me their Passenger Charter took priority and (politely) to go and play in the traffic.

That's not how the conditions of carriage read at all. A 1ST class ticket doesn't guarantee a seat, so you have to suck it up and stand in the first class section.

You're wrongly stirring here.

Under CoC, I know you're right EBrown.   Morally, by paying extra for First Class (especially on a service without catering), you're paying in addition to the standard fare in the anticipation of additional space / comfort, and if you don't get it you shouldn't end up being out of pocket by that additional amount.

Interesting to hear the different interpretations of CoC even on here.  But as grahame says, why would anyone buy a 1st class ticket if the travelling conditions are the same as standing in standard class?  If CoC give you a refund for the declassification of 1st class (ie. you have a 1st class experience but are forced to share it with standard class ticket holders) why would you not get a refund for standing in standard class?

Either way, FGW made their postion clear. 

One final question though - who is responsible for enforcing CoC? ie. if I had a query like this about interpretation of CoC then who could passengers go to, above  FGW and Passenger Focus?

[ChrisB]

PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) would do the trick, by leaning heavily on them....

[inspector_blakey]

That's not how the conditions of carriage read at all. A 1ST class ticket doesn't guarantee a seat, so you have to suck it up and stand in the first class section.

You're wrongly stirring here.

Let's try and keep things civilized shall we, EBrown? No need to take that tone at all. Clearly Passenger Focus thought there was some merit in the argument, or they wouldn't have taken on the case. Are you accusing them of "stirring" as well?

For what it's worth, I work in the industry (not for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) though) and was convinced before I went back to check the CoC^▸ (Chamber of Commerce TBA) that there *were* arrangements in there to compensate passengers with FC^‡(resolve) tickets who had to use SC.