50 years on ... how should we look forward to the next 50 years?

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

There is something of a rose-tinted view of the railways before Beeching.

Yes, the axe fell in places where it should not have, the collection of data was flawed, but it must also be remembered that Beeching gave us freight containerisation, Inter-City and merry-go-round coal trains.

The first Beeching report was a product of the thinking from government at the time. The real villians of the piece were Ernest Marples and Harold Macmillan.

It also needs to be remembered that there were many further closures, not identified in the original report that were signed off by subsequent Secretaries of State for Transport, Tom Fraser and Barbara Castle, in Harold Wilson's Labour administration. Many of these closures are today wrongly attributed to Richard Beeching and his 'axe'. 

[TonyK]

Yes, the axe fell in places where it should not have, the collection of data was flawed

Atkins?

[JayMac]

Found this gem on youtube:

Reshaping Britain's Railways: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvdOjNU_srg

Mr Beeching confidently, if somewhat dryly, making his case, direct to camera. An excellent summary of the report, no matter its flaws. Fascinating.

[swrural]

Beeching was OK.  It was the loss of formations and grubby land grabbing sold off by the BRPB that was so damaging.

It doesn't matter now though.  It's all downhill from here and no turning back.  Great times.   

[Red Squirrel]

When I read broadgage's suggestion that coal-burning steam engines may have a future role, I was tempted to dismiss it as wishful thinking.

Now I'm not so sure: We currently have about 300 route-miles of preserved railway in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), much of which is operated at least some of the time by kettle-based forms of locomotion. Some of these routes (part of the Torbay & Dartmouth is, I believe, already on the cards) could find themselves re-incorporated into the national network in future. Given that (particularly rural) branch lines draw deeply on the leisure market, it is not that fanciful to imagine a long-term role for steam traction.

Preserved railways which connect to the 'big railway' seem an obvious avenue for extending the national network. I can imagine a future where preserved mileage in less touristic areas is reclaimed by the national network, with heritage operations being transferred to reopened branches in areas where these assets would be better-used and make a better return.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Many thanks for your thought-provoking comments, redsquirrel - and a very warm welcome to the Coffee Shop forum! 

Personally, I'd love to see the West Somerset Railway reconnected to the main line at Taunton for connecting services, rather than faffing about having to travel by road to Bishops Lydeard ... 

[TonyK]

Excellent first post, redsquirrel, and welcome from me also. I agree with Chris re the West Somerset. There has been an awful lot of talking about them running as far as Taunton, it's about time there was some doing, too.

[Red Squirrel]

Thanks; happy to be here!

Yes, I'd like to see the West Somerset running through to Taunton, but I was talking about fully re-incorporating heritage lines into the national network.

Potentially this could be a legal and organisational minefield, but perhaps it need only be a variation on the sort of operation that Northern Rail and the North Yorkshire Moors Railway have between Grosmont and Whitby. I am sure there are huge holes in this theory, but here's an example based on the WSR:

1. NR^» (Network Rail - home page) takes ownership of the track and (heritage) signalling between Norton Fitzwarren and Minehead and upgrades it to allow (say) 50mph running of modern trains;
2. WSR continue to maintain other heritage assets (stations, signal boxes, vintage rolling stock etc);
3. Most trains operated by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (or successor) DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit), with WSR 'heritage' trains working special turns (with potential for 'plandampf' events and galas).

I do wonder what other future there is for these lines - the average age of volunteers is trending northwards.

Maybe you could call it a 'conservation railway'...

[swrural]

All I can advise RS is - don't suggest this to most members on the WSR.  You'll get a flea in the ear and if I describe the debate there as a 'can of worms' you will get some idea of what to expect.  It's much the same on many other preservation lines.

Some members do see an opening as you describe but not the vast majority.  There are many problems anyway, Light Railway Order, use of volunteers, railway safety,   --- no I'll stop now.  (Phew).

[Chris from Nailsea]

See also http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=2688.msg131182#msg131182  

[grahame]

Welcome, RedSquirrel - there seems a logic in running daily services on some of the preserved lines - especially those which would be included in a list of lines that really should not have been closed in the 1960s / 1970s. But ... there are issues.

If you're going to look at year-round commuter services, you'll need national rail / franchise style reliability figures to encourage your users - and that's probably a paid staff rather than volunteers.  And you'll need a certain size of town / line catchment to bring in the people.  Also note that a commuter-only service, if it provides one "up" in the morning and "down" in the evening will provide for just 50% of possible commuter traffic even if optimally timed, and that such timings will require different crews at each end of the day, which when you add holiday cover too probably brings you up to 3 drivers and 3 train managers.  Most if not all of the preserved lines in our area have a predominant directionallity - one way in the a.m., back in the p.m., with connectionallity at one end only, and so even if you see a full private train, it's likely to be for a tiny part of the day and not matched by the corresponding reverse working half an hour earlier / later, as there's no-one actually on that train to see it almost empty.   Then you have the 25 mph speed limit; there's no need to run an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) at full speed, but 25 mph is wy too slow IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion).

I've added a list of the standard gauge preserved / relaid lines that I'm aware of in our wider area, and their connectional status.  Very few of them would provide complete commuter journeys without ongoing national rail connections or through running.    There ain't much work at Bodmin Road, Cholsey or Smallbrook. 

Group 1 - Own Platform at interchange
Bodmin
Kingswear
Wallingford
Parkhead
Newport IOW
Alresford
Buckfastleigh

Group 2 - Running on NR^» (Network Rail - home page) tracks
Swanage
Minehead
Okehampton

Group 3 - No rail connection
Helston
Cricklade
Bitton
Plym Valley

Not sure about some other's current connection status
Chinnor
Shepton Mallet

I'm able to provide background / some guestimate figures / referenced to the above; they make fairly depressing thoughts.  Some of the issues could be overcome, but with the heavy importance and cost of blame attribution for delays, the need for access for all, and safety issues which require rail to be much safer than other transport systems mile for mile, costs are likely to be so high.  And with any new service along these lines, users need to be certain they can rely on it for the foreseen length of their job, and to be persuaded to move across to the service.   That's why seed funding or guarantee is needed, and why the inclusion within a mainframe franchise or equivalent - at least of a minimum spec service that fulfills travel needs - is paramount.

[Red Squirrel]

I wouldn't dream of floating this suggestion anywhere near Bishop's Lydeard, swrural; to be honest I think it's pretty amazing that the various bodies that make up or contribute to the WSR (WSR Co, WSRA, WSSRT, D&EG, S&DRT, Somerset CC etc) manage to pull together and put on such a good show.

But isn't the operating model of these railways going to have to change, as the supply of volunteers dries up and the kit gets older?

I'm just playing with ideas here, trying to imagine what a 'conservation railway' (akin to a 'conservation area' in planning terms) might look like and how it might be organised and run.

[trainer]

I think redsquirrel raises a very good point and one which I have often thought about.  At present, many preserved railways (and indeed other 'heritage' projects like mining museums) are heavily dependent on retired volunteers and their grandchildren and workers skilled in crafts no longer taught outside a a small specialist workshops.  Income is dependent on nostalgia and novelty, which naturally dies out with age and familiarity, and can only be replaced by something else equally financially lucrative.  When the 'die-hard' enthusiasts fall away either paid staff will need to be increased or the assets will again fade away.

RS suggests another way of maintaining these assets on a permanent basis and Graham has pointed out why full reintegration under NR^» (Network Rail - home page) rules has serious obstacles even where there are physical/adjacent connections.  A visionary group of Trustees will be looking forward to the day when their faithful band are no longer there and those who remember the days recreated have gone and can no longer make a rheumy-eyed visit with the family.

One model might be that of the Ffestiniog Railway which has actually created something entirely new on both its lines, while giving the impression it is preservation and, like the best of the 'big railways', is commercially successful.  If the Heritage railways wish to remain a part of the tourist trail or become commercially useful, some new model may need to be thought through within the next few years.

[swrural]

Yes, I agree with all that and as redsquirrel pointed out, there are precedents in North Yorkshire and Swanage.  I think it is the 365 day per year commuting service that would be ruled out (at present).  Although I indicated I had knowledge that many of the enthusiast members of these societies don't wish to embrace the resurrection of these lines as commuter lines, we can be sure that if the Swanage branch and Minehead branch had not been closed, they would not now be closed.  They would be part of the network just like the Portishead branch is to become shortly (we hope).  If you think about it, it is a good job, in that respect, the latter line never became a preserved one.  What an irony!

I believe that Trainer is correct and it is just a matter of a few decades (or less) before the preserved lines will need to face this issue.  Meanwhile, the formations have been protected and that at least is the service the preservationists have performed magnificently, as well as giving much pleasure to many.

[broadgage]

Of course ideas will change as to what counts as "heritage" HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) are now bordering on heritage ! and there is a preservation group for these.
It may seem unlikely that in decades to come, that people would pay good money to travel in a preserved HST, but look at the interest now in first generation DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit).

I wonder which will be the first heritage line to be electrified ? there is growing interest in early electric units and many would no doubt like to see them running under their own power.

I certainly expect that the divide between network rail lines and heritage lines will become less rigid in future years.