50 years on ... how should we look forward to the next 50 years?

[whole diary]

[FGW Huge]

hi graham

no i dont work for First but i have applied for a job ! .... it will be my third time trying. trying to follow my grandads footsteps as he built steam engines in derby!

[broadgage]

Urinating onto a conductor rail, except from an improbably short distance, is most unlikely to result in a serious shock, since as others post the urine is likely to consist of a series of droplets and not a continous stream.
I would however advise against trying it ! an unusualy forceful effort MIGHT JUST result in a continous stream and a dangerous electric shock.

The situation is somwhat similar to overhead lines whether part of the national grid or railway electrification.
To direct a solid jet of water at these from fire fighting or irrigation equipment is most unwise and firefighters and farmers are warned of the dangers. To stand under such equipment in a rainstorm is safe.

[eightf48544]

Very glad to see that Mythbusters confirming you can't pee onto a conductor rail and get a shock, which is good because i once peed out the cab of a 33 in Chrystal Palace tunnel.

Presumably one of the things in 50 years time will be no concductor rails except perhaps on the Tube.

[Electric train]

Presumably one of the things in 50 years time will be no concductor rails except perhaps on the Tube.

I'm not so convinced about that, certainly there will be re-electrification.  It will be a gradual process a very gradual process, a 100 years may be

[ellendune]

Presumably one of the things in 50 years time will be no concductor rails except perhaps on the Tube.

I'm not so convinced about that, certainly there will be re-electrification.  It will be a gradual process a very gradual process, a 100 years may be

How long will the power supply equipment last? Surely less than 100 years. If the conversion goes ahead I think that will determine the rate. 

[Electric train]

Presumably one of the things in 50 years time will be no concductor rails except perhaps on the Tube.

I'm not so convinced about that, certainly there will be re-electrification.  It will be a gradual process a very gradual process, a 100 years may be

How long will the power supply equipment last? Surely less than 100 years. If the conversion goes ahead I think that will determine the rate. 

Conrail can last 60 plus years, power supply equipment well there is some that is 60 years old and has just had a 5 to 10 year life extension.

Its down to affordability of the physical route mods to bridges, tunnels and other structures. 

It will be a ripple effect for instance, Basingstoke to Southampton should lead to Southampton to Weymouth also the move east to Woking , things like the North Downs line could lead to Reading to Staines.  In Kent extension out of Ashford and Ebbs Fleet especially is Crossrail ere to be extended from Abbey Wood

[paul7575]

There's a lot of DC^▸ (Direct Current) power equipment that was added to strengthen the existing supplies within the last ten years, with a probable life remaining in the order of 40 or 50 years.  On a trip from Basingstoke to Southampton you pass a number of almost new power supply points - and of course they are all in relocatable buildings and can be resited relatively easily.

I don't know offhand what the proportion of new to old gear is, but let's assume it's going to be providing about 25% of current capacity.  That's a lot of spare technology crying out to be re-used...

This was all done across the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) and SN networks in a bit of an emergency, to allow for the higher load of the new generation EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) such as Desiros and Electrostars - and the additions are still being done now for various train lengthening projects; I reckon brand new equipment is going to be added to the network for at least the next few years until all possible train lengthening is complete; in reaction to stuff like Thameslink for example.  Closer to home there's power strengthening planned for the Reading line (also for longer trains).

I often read online discussions suggesting that new DC equipment will no longer be fitted, but I believe that's a bit of an over-simplification.

Paul

[TonyK]

I don't know offhand what the proportion of new to old gear is, but let's assume it's going to be providing about 25% of current capacity.  That's a lot of spare technology crying out to be re-used...

In Network Rail's 2003 Technical Plan, we read that about 40% of the railway is electrified. I'm not aware of much new electrics since then. Of that 40%, around 60% is 25KV OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE"), 40% by other systems, predominantly third rail, but with the Tyne and Wear Metro still 1500V DC^▸ (Direct Current) OLE. Though only 40% is electrified, about 60% of passengers journeys are by electric traction. Being 25KV doesn't guarantee youth - some of it dates back to the late 1950s following the 1955 BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) Modernisation Plan, although much will presumably have been renewed since then.

[ellendune]

I agree that we are likely to see geographical spread from existing AC and that it is unlikely that there will be no new Dc equipment fitted.

So the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) network is likely to be first.  

I recall that the Brighton line was originally electrified using DC^▸ (Direct Current) overhead lines. Does this mean that the clearances are there for re-electrification?

The recent relocatable equipment could be used to replace life expired equipment elsewhere on the DC network or for infill electrification.

[Southernman]

The practicalities of conversion from third rail to overheads are very considerable (and expensive). I understand that it is not really possible to have both systems on the same line (except presumably where changeovers are to be made) as the currents will interfere with each other.

So, if the line from Basingstoke to Southampton (freight spine) is re-electrified on overheads, SWT^▸ (South West Trains) will require either new stock or changes to existing stock to enable them to continue to operate! Third Rail Waterloo-Basingstoke, Overheads Basingstoke-Southampton and Third Rail onwards. I also suspect that to make the changeover every train would have to stop at Basingstoke & Southampton (that would annoy passengers). I read that SWT have already raised concerns.

The disruption and costs of replacing Third Rail round Waterloo are beyond my imagination so I think this discussion has a very long way to run as to the best way forward.

[TonyK]

I'm fairly sure that the Eurostars, before HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) opened, were able to make the switch "on the fly". The momentum must be towards 25KV AC in the long term, but it will be a long, slow process. It would make sense to do it piecemeal, route by route, until the rolling stock remaining at third rail is so old and in such a minority that it makes sense to finish the conversion rather than build two types of train. Of course, there are plenty of trains into London that are already 25KV - are any of these lines also third rail?

[paul7575]

Trains such as Electrostars (377s) & Capitalstars (LO 378) can already switch over on the move, but it relies on the changeover section being long enough to make it safe to do so at speed, and I don't think they all are.   SWT^▸ (South West Trains)'s Desiro fleet comes into the 'easily converted to AC supply' category, they already have the pantograph well and all the fixed wiring for the equipment that needs to be added.  I believe this was a standard requirement for any EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) by the time they were ordered.

All SWT services that pass through stop at Southampton, and it may be that Basingstoke is the only place changeover at speed will be needed for mainline services - then again they might just bite the bullet and introduce calls on the non-stop trains...

Paul

[Electric train]

I recall that the Brighton line was originally electrified using DC^▸ (Direct Current) overhead lines. Does this mean that the clearances are there for re-electrification?

The Brighton Line was not fully ac electrified it only covered a small area in and around London as was the much lower voltage 6600V

The practicalities of conversion from third rail to overheads are very considerable (and expensive). I understand that it is not really possible to have both systems on the same line (except presumably where changeovers are to be made) as the currents will interfere with each other.

Its not so much the currents interfere with each other, the cores of transformers used for ac distribution can get saturated by the dc which makes the inefficient although there are expensive solutions, also vacuum interrupters used in ac have problems breaking dc currents (they produce X-rays  ).
Earthing and bonding posses a problem  ac electrification tends to have all extraneous conductive metalwork bonded to traction return whereas dc the last thing that wants to be done is bond extraneous metalwork to traction return, although there are ways around all this ............. at a price

As for changeover from third rail to OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") on the move while it is not something we chose to do (much of) in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) it is used in Europe all over the place so we could see some changes to how we operate our electrified railways