50 years on ... how should we look forward to the next 50 years?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

I wonder which will be the first heritage line to be electrified ? there is growing interest in early electric units and many would no doubt like to see them running under their own power.

You have major safety issues with electricity and volunteers, etc ... there's heritage electric stock in Coventry and East Kent, but I don't think the stock runs in either place.   I suspect that little of it is actually runnable in Coventry anyway.

There's open (ex railway yard) land to the South West of Brockenhurst station, and perhaps that would make an ideal spot for a preserved electric train depot.  The  Brockenhust to Lymington line would make an excellent stamping ground, bringing tourist to the area, and providing a service which could be run isolated from the main network when running heritage units, with commercial units (there are some class 508s in store at Eastleigh) running the rest of the service.   There's a bit of a precendent here as heritage electric units used to run on - err - the Lymington branch!

[Red Squirrel]

I'd put my ten bob on the Ardingly branch being the first electrified line in preservation - but we'll let the Bluebell have a bit of a rest before we start nagging them to get on with it!

[JayMac]

Of course, there are already electrified heritage railways. Just no heavy rail ones yet.

Volk's Electric Railway, Brighton
Seaton Tramway
Crich Tramway Museum

One or two more whose names escape me.

[Electric train]

Not sure about some other's current connection status
Chinnor

The CPPR have plans indeed want to extend from Tame Junction into Princes Risborough.  It means running parrallel to an operational siding (a long siding infact) I understand they have had some talks with NR^» (Network Rail - home page) and Chiltern Railways but the progress is slow

I wonder which will be the first heritage line to be electrified ? there is growing interest in early electric units and many would no doubt like to see them running under their own power.

You have major safety issues with electricity and volunteers, etc ... there's heritage electric stock in Coventry and East Kent, but I don't think the stock runs in either place.   I suspect that little of it is actually runnable in Coventry anyway.
There's open (ex railway yard) land to the South West of Brockenhurst station, and perhaps that would make an ideal spot for a preserved electric train depot.  The  Brockenhust to Lymington line would make an excellent stamping ground, bringing tourist to the area, and providing a service which could be run isolated from the main network when running heritage units, with commercial units (there are some class 508s in store at Eastleigh) running the rest of the service.   There's a bit of a precendent here as heritage electric units used to run on - err - the Lymington branch!

For a heritage railway to operate a "new" third rail they would have a difficult job convincing the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about), NR have a difficult job with its legacy system.  Finding the qualified electrical engineer that is experienced enough and willing to act as the professional head could be a challenge.  Then there is the cost of the substation equipment and the electricity bill the smallest rectifier is 2,000,000 watts.   Likewise with a 25kV OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") system convincing the ORR and having the qualified electrical engineer that is experienced enough and willing to act as the professional head.

Electric railways are not something a normal BS7671 Part P electrician would be competent to operate

I certainly expect that the divide between network rail lines and heritage lines will become less rigid in future years.

The onus to achieve this rests with the heritage railways, the likes of the Seven Valley and the West Somerset etc are in a stronger position as they have full time staff, NR has to be certain that another system operator will not compromise NR's safety case

[broadgage]

There are indeed risks in electrifying a preserved line, but these could be substantialy reduced by only energising the conductor rail when an electric train is to be run, rather than it being live 24/7 as on network rail.
Volunteers should of course be instructed to regard the conductor rail as live at all times unless confirmed IN WRITING as being de-energised. Turning it off when not needed would however reduce the risks of any mistake.

I would expect that many of the volunteers on an electric heritage line would have experience and training on electrified main lines.

[Red Squirrel]

You have major safety issues with electricity and volunteers, etc ...

I'm sure that's true. Then again, you have to be standing fairly close to an electric conductor for it to kill you. Now imagine a loco boiler failing at full pressure in a crowded station... I suppose it's all about putting in place the right safety system.

[FGW Huge]

i think we will see more of what beeching closed reopening especially where major towns do not have rail access. My Wish list would be in the GW^▸ (Great Western) Zone:

1. Didcot - Newbury and Newbury Winchester obviously wired
2. Fareham - Gosport
3. Kingham- Cheltenham
4. Andover - Marlborough - Swindon- cirencester and cheltenham
5. Somerset and Dorset
6. Patney to Holt via Devizes
7. Sharpness line

more to follow and hello group i am new

hugo

[grahame]

Hi, Hugo and welcome to the forum .. it will indeed  be interesting to see where we are in 50 years.  I fear that some of the lines you mention are going to work out to be more from the heart than the head (and I have a heart too);  some are well blocked and would be very hard to re-open and others my have alternatives that would be more practical - for example Cirencester from Kemble, giving a much more frequent service than a re-opened Midland and South West Junction.

I notice "FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Huge" as your user name. To clarify it for us, do you work for FGW [and post representing their views (I think I can work the answer to that one out from your post  ) ] or did you make that choice of name because you're an admirer?

[TonyK]

Of course, there are already electrified heritage railways. Just no heavy rail ones yet.

Volk's Electric Railway, Brighton
Seaton Tramway
Crich Tramway Museum

One or two more whose names escape me.

Heaton Park Tramway, Manchester, is one of them, BNM. I take on board the general point of this discussion about electric trains, though. My 18-month old grandson may yet have the chance to drive a restored and preserved IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) on a volunteer-led heritage railway. Also possible within 50 years would be the arrival of a sensible idea on public transport from that unelected and frankly dangerous oligarchy, the West of England Partnership.

Seaton tramway is a case in point about safety. From the top deck of the tram, it would be perfectly possible for anyone over 5 feet tall to grab the conductor cable. It is, IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly), "only" 110V DC^▸ (Direct Current), but would still do a fair amount of damage if grabbed. Safety is maintained by warning signs, and I am unaware of any accidents.

750V DC third rail has led to some bizarre incidents, not least this one suffered by an unfortunate Polish visitor. I can think of little worse, and I feel for him and his family.

I have said before that the English way, where we solve a problem for 25 years then leave it to the next generation but four to make the next move, is unsustainable. It is difficult to see how this could be done, but national public transport planning must be removed from political interference, and given some form of autonomy from government. I say it is difficult to see how it could be achieved, because Government holds the purse strings, and governments of different colours hold differing views of how we should all get around those parts of the country that lie outside London. But the English Way of prevarication and procrastination is wasteful. The electrification of the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) has been planned, announced, and cancelled at least twice before this current (no pun intended) phase, which seems, fortunately, inevitable. I think it foundered in the 1980s for want of a fully joined up plan - unlike now, there was no concurrent plan for new rolling stock. But it would have worked, even if it was mainly loco hauled trains. The cost of this process has been huge. We have had to refurb the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and bring in other new diesel stock. We have burned an awful lot more oil than we would have done had the original plan gone ahead, and the price of copper has soared.

The point I make is that new graduates entering DafT should have a clear vision of what transport in 2063 should look like. They will not themselves see the project through, but their decisions and recommendations should be made with that goal in mind, so that the next generation can simply carry on. Look at the time, effort, expectation and money put into building a Greater Bristol tramway, only for it to be replaced by a rubbish bus scheme costing a lot more, and you will see what I mean.

The current system of "Cost-Benefit Ratio" for deciding projects is flawed, as a look at the documents supporting that same bus system over light rail can be seen. It is too often used as an excuse to do nothing, as the Portishead Railway saga also demonstrates. The rules cannot be relaxed completely, or any Tom, Dick, or Isambard would have freedom to build whatever he wants, but there must be greater recognition of the growth factor associated with any high-quality people moving system.

[Red Squirrel]

750V DC^▸ (Direct Current) third rail has led to some bizarre incidents, not least this one suffered by an unfortunate Polish visitor. I can think of little worse, and I feel for him and his family.

Worth saying, IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion), that it is likely that said unfortunate visitor was probably electrocuted in a fairly conventional way (as it were): according to the very wonderful Mythbusters (Discovery Channel, repeated endlessly) it is as close to impossible as makes no odds for a stream of urine to pass an electric current - the flow is non-laminar, and is essentially a series of droplets.

[TonyK]

Worth saying, IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion), that it is likely that said unfortunate visitor was probably electrocuted in a fairly conventional way (as it were): according to the very wonderful Mythbusters (Discovery Channel, repeated endlessly) it is as close to impossible as makes no odds for a stream of urine to pass an electric current - the flow is non-laminar, and is essentially a series of droplets.

Being next to impossible only reduces the likelihood of mishap slightly. Non-laminar or not, I recall an edition of that Chris Tarrant on TV show, where an Englishman decided, for no particular reason other than to get his todger on video IMHO, to see what would happen were he to do pee-pee on one of those electric cattle fences, powered by a mere 12V battery. I am happy to say that it caused him considerable pain, all south of the equator, despite the non-laminar nature of his urine. I'll see if I can find it on Youtube, so you can stream it.

[Red Squirrel]

Worth saying, IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion), that it is likely that said unfortunate visitor was probably electrocuted in a fairly conventional way (as it were): according to the very wonderful Mythbusters (Discovery Channel, repeated endlessly) it is as close to impossible as makes no odds for a stream of urine to pass an electric current - the flow is non-laminar, and is essentially a series of droplets.

Being next to impossible only reduces the likelihood of mishap slightly. Non-laminar or not, I recall an edition of that Chris Tarrant on TV show, where an Englishman decided, for no particular reason other than to get his todger on video IMHO, to see what would happen were he to do pee-pee on one of those electric cattle fences, powered by a mere 12V battery. I am happy to say that it caused him considerable pain, all south of the equator, despite the non-laminar nature of his urine. I'll see if I can find it on Youtube, so you can stream it.

I'm using scientific understatement. I'll rephrase: It is not possible for a stream of urine to sustain an electric current.

See this clip

[Chris from Nailsea]

I'll see if I can find it on Youtube, so you can stream it.

I'll spare you the effort: it's here. 

[TonyK]

It wasn't that one CfN, but I shall follow the advice, and will not try it at home.

[Red Squirrel]

Electric fences use pulsed DC^▸ (Direct Current) of 2-3kV, and are at just below waist height - I am guessing yer man was pretty close to it where the urine stream is close to laminar. The Mythbusters piece concedes that if you get within 3" of a third rail and pee on it, you may well get a belt; from a standing position you won't.

Not that I'd want to put it to the test!