Why is a penalty threat printed onto my totally legitimate ticket?

[whole diary]

[ellendune]

Penalty fares are a DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) requirement in various different franchises, and not simply a case of TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) throwing their weight around.

Then DfT rail is part of the problem not the solution as they encourage some TOC staff to do just that.

The basic principle is very simple: if you can buy a ticket at the station where you join the train, you must do so. If you can't, you may buy on board.

Yes very simple and if applied by reasonable minded people it works fine.  Its just they it is not always applied by reasonable minded people and uses the criminal law in a way that is contrary to modern principles of regualtory justice (see McRory principles http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file44593.pdf)

[EBrown]

Very unlikely to happen: the Conditions of Carriage provide you with absolute protection if there is nowhere you can purchase a ticket where you begin your journey.

Yes, yet it doesn't in reality. The issue is, once you have a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare), you have to appeal. IPFAS are appalling, they tend to automatically reject your appeal unless there is exceptional cause.

Standard letter rejecting your appeal is sent every time it appears.

[thetrout]

IPFAS are appalling

I couldn't agree more. They are the most useless bunch of I don't know whats that ever worked in an Office. I wrote a letter to them of behalf of a family member who received a Penalty Fare as a result of circumstances that were not strictly her fault but could have endangered her personal safety has she tried to buy a ticket.

In a nutshell a group of loitering yobs were smoking and drinking around the only ticket machine and she decided not to approach the Ticket Machine in the event she was harrassed, assaulted, mugged or worse. We've already seen in my post last week what can happen when you stop to sit down and eat some chips in a busy town... She decided to purchase on board. However no conductor was selling tickets (Turned out to be a DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) service after some Googling) and she ended up getting to the London Terminus before being able to purchase a ticket.

Now not only did she voluntary declare she had travelled First Class and wanted a First Class ticket but also asked for a Cross London Journey ticket of which she had a further hour to go. She ended up with Twice the Full First Class Single as far as London and was told to purchase a separate ticket for he cross London Journey. The RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) from my understanding was an officious git who then basically told her to sign the document or criminal record. She began to read the notice to make sure everything was correct and the RPI shouted: Very Simple, Sign there or criminal record. My Cousin then went a little mad at him and said she was checking the details were correct and what the terms and conditions were. (The former I'd say more important as I would be almost certain there would be a condition about false information) Anyway, it turned out the RPI got 2 things wrong which he refused to correct as and I quote: "Had too much to do" So she signed it with her signature and marked next to it "Signed Under Duress" Well the RPI went mad when she handed him back the form and said she was going to get a criminal record for signing the form in such a and I quote "Childish Manner".

IPFAS initially rejected the appeal sighting that she had not purchased a ticket and the tone of the letter seemed to suggest she was required to enter needless peril in order to forfill her obligations in purchasing a ticket. Whilst all this was going on it transpired that the ticket machine in question did not have an ability to take Card Payments at the time and a couple of weeks either side due to the Card Machine being removed due to, surprise, surprise, Vandalism!!!

She sent back another letter stating that she would see them in court written based on a few pointers from the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) once we knew the card machine was broken. IPFAS did not respond despite having PoD. The TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) however did respond rather quickly. It actually seemed like someone had taken the time to write it by typing rather than a template. Also from the letter it is more than obvious that they had watched the CCTV^▸ (Closed Circuit Tele Vision) from the station. As a result:

Penalty Fare Cancelled Indefinitely
Cheque Refund for the extra ticket she had paid rounded to the nearest higher pound for her onward Journey t'other side of London.
4x Complimentary First Class Tickets and a further cash good will gesture in the form of a Cheque.

1x Very happy but slightly bitter still cousin

It is further assumed the RPI in question meet his demise shortly afterward as she hasn't seen him since and was a regular feature apparently for infamy with the Night Revelers

IPFAS however are still apparently chasing the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) despite her having written to them twice with a copy of the letter from the TOC. She declared she was withdrawing from all future discussion surround the particular case in her last letter...

[swrural]

That story reinforces all I wrote back along.  I did not read the rude rejoinder that followed but it seems that vacman has the attitude of which I complained.  I hope he /she is not an employee.

Thankfully, I have not found other than wonderful, friendly and helpful service by all staff I have encountered on South West Trains, so it's no wonder they are so successful on the Exeter to Waterloo service.  They seem to charge people who don't have a ticket with no quibble or fuss from what I have seen.

[grahame]

The vast majority of staff are cheerful, helpful and don't assume guilt until innocence is proven.  As the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) of this topic, I should perhaps have added that the conductor who sold me a ticket was a real gentleman - "yes, of course I'll sell you a ticket" and no mention was made of penalty fares or anything of the sort in our conversation; my report was just that I had big red type on the ticket which I consider to be threatening and suggesting that I may have broken the rules. 

However, as many other posts point out (here and elsewhere), it's so easy when you're in a role of authority / enforcement to get lulled into the attitude of quickly assuming the worst of people and then looking for them to prove their innocence, or (worse) not giving them that opportunity.  And it's all too easy (and perfectly within the rules, I'm afraid) for staff to assume that their customer / passengers know all the regulations - lack of knowledge of the law is not, alas, a defence.  With the business we run that's a particular concern, with many of our customers travelling to visit us having English as a second language, and with little experience of the rail system.  Sometimes they'll get it wrong through lack of knowledge, other times they're scared off doing the legitimate because of all those frightening notices.  Goodness - I wish we had a sign at Melksham Station that said "You may join the train at this station (Melksham) without a ticket and buy one from the Train Manager" or on the departure screen against each train added "If you don't have a ticket, you may join this train and buy one from the conductor".  Shouldn't be beyond the technology ....

[thetrout]

grahame makes an interesting point on assumptions.

The guilty until proven innocent isn't just applied to railways and fare evasion in my opinion.

IT Technicians adopts a similar position when a customer brings a computer to the technician. It is common practice and good Rapport to ask the customer whats wrong with it, what they were doing when it happened and if they changed anything/installed anything.

Now very often the customer will lie! You cannot believe them based on what they say because of this even if they are telling the truth. You can get a vague idea as a guide to start from and then it's up to you to decide how it's happened and whether the customer has been a bit silly or whether it was a genuine wear and tear failure.

Now you might ask, is the IT guy going to assume i'm an idiot and laugh at me behind your back. Well sadly, yes, yes we may do occasionally. But it's the same across any industry like Plumbing etc. The way I try to do it though is to educate the user to stop the problem happening again. I feel sorry for people who have problems with IT simply because they don't understand. We all have to start somewhere.

Now another thing is that in doing so we may open up an e-mail program for education on viruses and sending e-mails. Also if you've changed ISP's you'll probably need to change mail servers. Now contray to popular belief. I have no interest in your e-mails or your life behind a closed door or in your inbox.

I had a customer the other week where they had several online dating agency e-mails in their inbox. They tried to deny all knowledge of how they got there (It was obvious by this point that they were lying and their reaction when they came up spoke 1000 words. They were clearly an active member as the subject of one e-mail started with "Your Payment"........)

I'm not there to judge anybody for what they do on their computers etc and quite honestly I have my own life (in a callous way but true). I think that RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s could adopt a similar principle by not being on the attack but perhaps passively explaining the issue and stepping up a gear as and when necessary. As obviously as seen in my other post in FP some people just can't drop the bone

Here is another example from an ITV Program a few years ago. But I wonder if RPI teams also employ "The Switching Technique" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alK05vzszMA

Disclaimer: Way Beyond Fruity Language, Nudity and General Idiocy ensues. But this program was broadcast and I by no means hold the copyright and neither did I upload the Video to YouTube which I'd day has come from a questionable source

[LiskeardRich]

grahame makes an interesting point on assumptions.

The guilty until proven innocent isn't just applied to railways and fare evasion in my opinion.

IT Technicians adopts a similar position when a customer brings a computer to the technician. It is common practice and good Rapport to ask the customer whats wrong with it, what they were doing when it happened and if they changed anything/installed anything.

Its also seems to be the way with many motoring offences. The registered keeper of the vehicle is guilty of many motoring offences, especially speeding and parking offences, unless they can prove they werent at the wheel.

I once received a parking ticket for a vehicle I was keeper for whilst it was meant to be in for an MOT, the council told me I'd best pay it, and then pursue the garage who was MOT'ing my car for the cost. Turns out one of the mechanics had taken it to get a Burger King and parked on double lines whilst they were in the BK getting lunch!.

[thetrout]

I was in Taunton some time in September 2008 and was walking down East Reach from the town centre to go home.

I noticed across the road a police car pulling up with blue lights going just opposite the Esporta Gym. That section of road is ALL double yellow lines from the Traffic Lights down towards the Tesco Petrol Station.

They all bailed out and went into Scrummys (Kebab Shop) I assumed to deal with a fight. Oh no, not at all. All 4 officers were ORDERING KEBABS!!!

There was a Traffic Warden walking by who realised what was going on and very hastily gave the police car a ticket. Well when the officers came out food in hands their faces were a picture when they saw the ticket!

Not sure if the traffic warden did it as a joke or not though...

[LiskeardRich]

I was in Taunton some time in September 2008 and was walking down East Reach from the town centre to go home.

I noticed across the road a police car pulling up with blue lights going just opposite the Esporta Gym. That section of road is ALL double yellow lines from the Traffic Lights down towards the Tesco Petrol Station.

They all bailed out and went into Scrummys (Kebab Shop) I assumed to deal with a fight. Oh no, not at all. All 4 officers were ORDERING KEBABS!!!

There was a Traffic Warden walking by who realised what was going on and very hastily gave the police car a ticket. Well when the officers came out food in hands their faces were a picture when they saw the ticket!

Not sure if the traffic warden did it as a joke or not though...

Think the traffic wardens back in 2008 were police employees. I know they moved over in the last couple of years from being police employees to council employees. Probably a joke.

[vacman]

OMG^▸ (Oh My doG ) how to make a mountain out of a mole hill! The truth is nobody reads the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) warnings anyway judging by the amount of people who I PF saing "We always buy a ticket on the train", so why should those people who cant be arsed to get to the station in time to buy a ticket, who have a "the rules dont apply to me" attitude be treated the same as the people who DO get there in time, DO have the foresight to buy a season ticket? Thankfully most of the decent passengers I see often comment on how lovely it is to see RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s Penalty Faring the chancers who always seem to be late, always seem to sit right at the opposite end to the guard and 9 times out of 10 seem to get a free ride.

[JayMac]

And what exactly are you doing PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)-ing these 'chancers?' If an opportunity to purchase a ticket for the journey being made has been passed then shouldn't that be a Byelaw prosecution? If there's some evidence of intent then shouldn't that be a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution?

If these folk are getting away with it nine times out of ten, then it's time FGW^▸ (First Great Western) stopped with the Penalty Fare nonsense for them. Nine journeys for free and one for ^20 or twice the single fare is a bit of a bargain and no disincentive for the 'chancers'.

Folk'll soon stop 'chancing' it if they face prosecution. With either an out of court settlement far greater than a PF or if the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) so desires, hauling them in front of a magistrate. Strict liability for the Byelaw and it's a shoe-in for the win. RoRA for those who've shown intent in deeds or words and bang - criminal record.

Important note I'm talking about the 'chancers' here. Not the person who had no facilities at their start station or was unable to buy the ticket they wanted from a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) either because it wasn't available or the TVM wouldn't accept their method of payment.

[EBrown]

The truth is nobody reads the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) warnings anyway judging by the amount of people who I PF saing "We always buy a ticket on the train".

I hope we meet, when I don't have a ticket on a train and tell you that I always buy one on a train. It'll be fun, really it will.

There are only two people in revenue protection I currently like, one is your boss and t'other is an exceptionally kind man with the initials AM.

Who knows, maybe you'll get added to my list or not.

[swrural]

What do FGW^▸ (First Great Western) guards say when passing through?  Do they say -' any tickets from (eg) Yeovil?'

I always wonder what happens when the Yeovil non-paying passenger just keeps stum.  On the other hand it is tiresome to be asked more than once to shew one's ticket.

On SWT^▸ (South West Trains) (my normal line) they seem to be pretty cute.  The rather agresssive replies from Vacman shew that he is not to be trifled with (even on here!) and is thus also 'cute'.

Would it not be a good idea to fit seat backs with ticket holders so the passenger can shew his ticket by just plonking it there.  I always have my ticket in my top pocket and if the guard is coming through, I place it on the table so he doesn't have to ask.

If that was de rigeur, that would expose the non payer straightaway.  So ticket holders for backs of seats like the reservation holders.  Any good as a suggestion?

[JayMac]

And what happens when passengers regularly fail to take their ticket with them after placing it in the seat back? Experience shows that rail travellers are a forgetful bunch.

Cue lots of passengers facing PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare) or prosecution after they arrive at a gateline, revenue block or connecting service with no ticket.

[Chris from Nailsea]

An interesting suggestion, swrural, but I rather think it's unworkable, for several reasons (including the previous point).

There is no single format for tickets, for one thing: some people will have a standard stock card ticket, issued by a Ticket Vending Machine or staff with an Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) machine, but others will have season tickets with picture identification, or discount railcards with identification (which must both be shown to be valid) and still others may have sheets of A4 printouts from purchasing advance tickets online, or travel vouchers, for example.

Also, season tickets with picture identification will include personal details, which I'm not sure passengers will want to have on display to all and sundry for the duration of their journey, rather than being produced only for the purposes of checking by authorized rail staff.