Why is a penalty threat printed onto my totally legitimate ticket?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Penalty Fare Warning
...
If an Authorised Penalty Fares Collector had been checking tickets you may have been charged a 20 pound Penalty Fare, or twice the single fare to the next station stop, whichever is the greater.
...

Printed in read on the rear of the ticket I was issued - on the train - this evening.

[rant]Why the **** put such a notice that comes across as very threatening when you're issuing tickets from a station, dear TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company), where you haven't offered us any chance to buy tickets?[/rant].   

That's only part of the notice ... the other two sentences are equally frightening but at least they contain the words "where ticket or permit issuing facilities are available" in the first case, and "if ticket issuing facilities are available" in the second.

[inspector_blakey]

I have a feeling that it's a DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) requirement for TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) that operate a penalty fares scheme: in all honesty I have entirely lost track of FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s penalty fares schemes, or lack thereof, outside the Thames Valley, but I think this is the reason for the warning on the back of the Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) ticket stock.

As an aside, SWT^▸ (South West Trains) and other TOCs can issue a "penalty fare warning" to passengers who could have been charged a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) but on the day encountered a commercial guard (able to sell tickets but not raise a PF) rather than an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)): it's a common stock Avantix issue drawing attention to the red print on the back.

[thetrout]

This isn't anything new. I nearly always see this on any tickets I purchase on board the train. I can see how it's a bit concerning though. If you take Bruton as an example:

No Ticket Office, No TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) or PERTIS^▸ (Permit to travel) Machine and it's NOT a Penalty Fares Station. Yet any guard who sells you a ticket on board you a guaranteed to get a ticket with that message on the reverse.

I've not had it printed on the back of tickets I have purchased from stations unless it was a member of staff holding an Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) which can happen if the station is very busy or you are the wrong side of the barrier

You even get this message printed on tickets when you are buying things like Weekend First or Gold Card 1st Supplements which, the former, you cannot buy before boarding anyway. The latter you can only get from a Ticket Office or on board the train if the Ticket Office is closed.

I personally think though, that WF buy onboard only policy contradicts the message for passengers who have every intention to pay the upgrade but the signs say penalty fares are chargeable when: "Travelling in First Class Accommodation with a Standard Class Ticket"

[thetrout]

This is the Stock grahame is referencing if anyone is confused...



Edit fixed picture URL and added below text. thetrout

If anyone is struggling to read the writing on the back of the ticket. Here is the picture in full size at the below link (2.4MB so might take a while on a smartphone over GPRS^▸ (General Packet Radio Service) )

http://bit.ly/ZcVyxA

[EBrown]

Oh the irony. I have the exact same ticket stock. Issued by an: Authorised Collector on a train during an ticket check.

On Friday I played the 'Oh but the journey planner said I could (and produced evidence)' game on a ticket from London Victoria to London Waterloo via Slough (Ticket marked U12* LONDN to LONDON TERMINALS, Route: +ANY PERMITTED).

As it happened I found possibly the kindest RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) ever who despite refusing to accept I was right, issued me an excess fare between Paddington and Slough (^5.50 - even offering the railcard discount). Anyway, I will be applying for a refund from FGW^▸ (First Great Western). Perhaps BNM will be kind enough to offer some advice on how to word that.


The ticket is, I believe a requirement of the penalty fare rules that the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) scheme is advertised widely. I think the RSP 9299/PEN stocked recently changed from a generic warning that didn't reference the authorised collector.

[JayMac]

On Friday I played the 'Oh but the journey planner said I could (and produced evidence)' game on a ticket from London Victoria to London Waterloo via Slough (Ticket marked U12* LONDN to LONDON TERMINALS, Route: +ANY PERMITTED).

Anyway, I will be applying for a refund from FGW^▸ (First Great Western). BNM will be kind enough to offer some advice on how to word that.

Well, that particular routeing is most interesting and is, as you say, very much gaming the system. But it is perfectly legitimate to follow the journey planner from National Rail Enquiries.

As for the refund, I'd simply stick to the facts. You were using a journey plan from the definitive public source for rail fares information - National Rail Enquiries, and you bought the recommended ticket for the journey uyou wished to make.

[thetrout]

This is probably one of the best routing irregularities...

[vacman]

The Penalty fare warning clearly states If travelling from a Penalty Fares station..... You weren't so what's the problem? It has to be there for when tickets are sold from PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) stations and it is totally impractical to have 2 lots of ticket stock.

[grahame]

The Penalty fare warning clearly states If travelling from a Penalty Fares station..... You weren't so what's the problem? It has to be there for when tickets are sold from PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) stations and it is totally impractical to have 2 lots of ticket stock.

And how is Joe Public going to know what a Penalty fare station is?  The only indication at the station at which I joined that you may board the train without a ticket is a notice board 100m from the station which includes a sentence to that effect with a great deal of other information.

When I bought an advanced ticket from a member of staff, I was handed an extra card reminding me that it was only valid on the booked train. Couldn't such a card be handed out (perhaps printed on the same stock?) to people who do break the rules, rather than handing out threats to all and sundry at smaller stations?   What's "clear" to members of staff and seasoned travellers is not "clear" to others - perhaps newcomers to using rail, who are frighetened by such warnings; they make even seasoned travellers like myself a bit nervous.

I'm travelling from a penalty fare station this evening, back to Melksham on the return half of that same ticket. And anyone who checks my ticket can read that threat, see that I joined at a PF station, and may be left thinking "what a naughty boy" ... sometimes the rail industry's systems really don't help encourage people to use trains, do they? Rather, they cast aspersions over their most faithful of users and supporters!

[Phil]

it is totally impractical to have 2 lots of ticket stock.

I'd agree with that. However, I would instead turn the issue on its head and simply make every station a "penalty fare" station.

In other words, do away with this obviously divisive and confusing scheme altogether and simply make it absolutely clear that fare dodging will not be tolerated anywhere on Britain's railways.

[paul7575]

And how is Joe Public going to know what a Penalty fare station is? 

Theoretically he'll know by the lack of the yellow Penalty Fare warning posters - which are an essential part of the scheme, with a format laid down by DfT^» (Department for Transport - about). There are sometimes complaints that they are not visible enough though that's not my experience.

http://geographyphotos.photoshelter.com/image/I0000bP0hR7U3L7w

At my local (SWT^▸ (South West Trains)) station the text explicitly informs you that the scheme applies to SWT and SN but not to FGW^▸ (First Great Western).  I suppose your basic question is should there be a 'negative' poster at all stations outside PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) schemes?

Paul

[swrural]

I am not interested in the slightest in the ins and outs of all this (and on other parallel threads here) and am a 'twice a year' passenger at the moment.  If I got on a train, and the station had a closed booking office and some jobsworth started telling me about a fine, I will become a 'nil' passenger from that point on.  We have two cars....

It's all going easy for the railways at present, but a backlash will build up just like it did in the 50s. 

Do any of you remember the jobsworth attitudes then on public transport? 

Bus conductors dinging the bell just as you were seen running for the bus stop, porters sneering as you fumbled to find your ticket.

They will pay, unless they get a grip on this nonsense.

[vacman]

  We have two cars....

Bye then.

[inspector_blakey]

I am not interested in the slightest in the ins and outs of all this (and on other parallel threads here) and am a 'twice a year' passenger at the moment.  If I got on a train, and the station had a closed booking office and some jobsworth started telling me about a fine, I will become a 'nil' passenger from that point on. 
<snip>
They will pay, unless they get a grip on this nonsense.

Very unlikely to happen: the Conditions of Carriage provide you with absolute protection if there is nowhere you can purchase a ticket where you begin your journey. If the ticket office is closed and there is no ticket machine, you are absolutely entitled to pay the fare on-board that you would have paid at a ticket office. If there's a ticket machine that sells the ticket you need then you must buy it, or failing that a ticket to *somewhere* as evidence of where you started your journey: this must then be "cashed in" at the first reasonable opportunity for the ticket you need.

Penalty fares are a DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) requirement in various different franchises, and not simply a case of TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) throwing their weight around. The basic principle is very simple: if you can buy a ticket at the station where you join the train, you must do so. If you can't, you may buy on board.

[Phil]

vacman, that's a little bit harsh. Please play nicely. swrural is perfectly entitled to his or her opinion, and I have to confess I have a certain sympathy with the underlying sentiment, even if the "jobsworth" stuff was perhaps a little heavy handed.

The fact remains, if an occasional traveller enters a station to find no staff or vending machine available and is subsequently the recipient of dire warnings about fines or worse when they board the train, they aren't particularly likely to use the service again or indeed to recommend it to their friends. As a marketing tool it's about as effective as handing people free burgers and then following them into the pub and accusing them of theft later on. The bottom line is, you need to charge customers for the burgers BEFORE you hand them over. It can only be the vendor who's at fault, not the customer (or indeed the burger).