Why is a penalty threat printed onto my totally legitimate ticket?

[whole diary]

[swrural]

All good points, and I am just as likely to be one of BignoseMac's victims, (memory like a sieve). 

I try to search for things that would counteract the Steve Norris view of public transport, of which I reminded everyone a little while ago since I recently joined this site.  If anyone cannot remember it, I am sure a google search with 'drawbacks of public transport' and his name would fish it up.

In this case when I walk 5 yards to my car in the drive and go to X I do not have to shew anyone a ticket.  I don't have to go through the fuss of buying one either and I don't need to go through the unpleasantness of being suspected of criminality when trying to buy one on the train, because, unknown to the guard, the machine at my station was just vandalised.

This is the reason why I tried to come up with ideas to avoid this drawback of train travel.

[thetrout]

In this case when I walk 5 yards to my car in the drive and go to X I do not have to shew anyone a ticket.  I don't have to go through the fuss of buying one either and I don't need to go through the unpleasantness of being suspected of criminality when trying to buy one on the train, because, unknown to the guard, the machine at my station was just vandalised.

You may disagree with me for saying this. But I think the analogies there are out of context but similar nevertheless:

On the one hand with the car: Yes you have the flexibility of getting in and driving off. But what about if you look at it like this:

Cars:

• Insurance: Finding the best price policy with everything you require. e.g. Third Party/Fully Comp
• Tax: Is the car in a Tax Band I can afford or is an amount I am comfortable paying - More Importantly, Did I remember to renew it when it was due
• Fuel: How much in fuel am I going to need this week - Have I got enough in the tank to drive that extra 100 Miles to the folks this week?
• Oil/Screenwash/Brake Fluid/Tyres etc: Is the vehicle road worthy, When am I due an oil change, Do I need new tyres, Did I top up the screenwash?
• Journey: How am I going to get from Banbury to Southampton tomorrow: Sat Nav? Perhaps I'll take the motorway, No Wait, Roadworks on the M3. What happens if I get lost on that dreaded B Road I might take if the A road is closed? Can I afford to be perhaps 10 minutes late to that meeting in Charlbury on the way?
• Sustainance/Comfort: Shall I have lunch in the Service Area on the way/Eat and Drive? How many times should I stop on the way for a coffee after a grilling 5 hour meeting all day? Should I break the journey in a Travelodge overnight? I had one too many coffees at Fleet Services, Need to stop for the toilet again!

All takes probably the same amount of time to sort out and keep the car roadworthy (and legal more importantly) than perhaps turning up at the station to buy your ticket. Here is another example:

Trains:

• Ticket: Do I want a First Class/Standard Class Ticket, Do I want to be able to travel any route or just via a specific station or TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)(s)? Do I want a sleeper berth if it's available? Shall I reserve a seat?
• Price: Am I happy paying ^168.00 for a StandardnAnytime Return from Bath Spa - London Paddington? What will be the overall cost including sustainance and onward travel?
• Cheaper Price: Shall I book in advance and limit myself to one train or perhaps a less flexible Ticket which is barred from certain trains? Is there an add-on to my ticket to cover onward Bus Travel or Zonal Rail/City Travel?
• Cheaper Price but I need to travel now/today: Can I excess my ticket as I need to get the 17:00 and not the 19:30 as the wife has gone into labour early? Or is it cheaper to buy a new ticket?
• Different Routes: Do I want to save myself a tenner (example) by going via Salisbury rather than Swindon?
• Onward Travel: Does the station have a suitable Bus/Coach/Ferry onto my destination? Could I Walk? Is there likely to be a taxi on the station rank? If not should I prebook or could I walk to another rank? Could the 16:30 get delay for 50 minutes and I keep the taxi waiting? Can I let them know if this happens e.g. Phone signal
• The Times/Connections: Is 10 Minutes enough time to change trains at Reading? Do I want to stop at Reading for an hour for lunch and can I do it? Do I have enough time to get the last bus to my housing estate? What backup do I have if I miss it?
• Onboard the train: Do I want to get a train with a Buffet Car, Hot Buffet Service, Restaurant, First Class, Sleeper, WiFi etc? the 20:03 is running 1 hour late but as the 20:34 doesn't have First Class and I have a First Class ticket shall I wait for the 20:03?
• Fellow Rail Users: Do I mind the possibility I could be squashed against the wall arm-pit to arm-pit? Could I want to sit in the First Class Lounge for 3 hours instead to get a quieter train by purchasing a First Class Single from Paddington to Ealing Broadway? but travel Standard Class back to Bath Spa? Can I put up with that obnoxious screaming kid in the Quiet Carriage? Can I guarentee I am going to be able to use the toilet? Is another passenger going to take umbridge with me because I offer them the window seat next to me rather than just moving up?

Both:

• Journey Time: Which is quicker: Drive or Catch the Train? It takes 30 minutes longer by rail but the line has a good punctuality rating so might I prefer not to drive? Vs. It's 30 minutes quicker by rail but it's known to be unreliable so shall I take the risk?
• Well Being: Am I going to find it more relaxing to drive or catch the train? Is the meeting at work going to be stressful enough I might not feel like I can drive home safely? Am I returning after dark? Am I going to feel safer driving after dark or catching the train after dark? Do I want to have a pint after that grilling meeting so therefore should I go on the train anyway?
• Ease of use: Is it easier to drive? Could I get lost? Or do I know the stations I need to change at and my way around?
• Delays: Can I afford to be 20 minutes late? Do I mind small delays say up to 10 minutes? Can I get my money back on the rail ticket if the train is 30 minutes late and I choose not travel and drive instead? What about the costs incurred in getting to the station e.g. Parking Costs/Bus Fare could I claim those costs back? or could I afford to risk losing them? Do I mind getting stuck in traffic for over an hour and wasting time and fuel? Can I claim off anyone for this delay?
• Accidents: What happens if I crash my car into a hedge or someone else? Is that going to have a big impact on my ongoing life? The train lurtches and I spill coffee down my clean white shirt before that job interview I'm travelling to. Or I slip over and break my leg in the Station Toilets. Can I cope with this on my own or should someone travel with me?

I know some of those are un-realistic or silly (Not saying though that they don't happen!) But when you look at it like that, is the car such a good option after all...? Particularly for us young'ns?

As an aside, I recall sitting down with my mum years ago and we worked out it was cheaper for me to buy on the day First Class Rail Tickets in most cases (bearing in mind I have a Disabled Railcard and a Bus Pass) than to get a car at the age of 18 and everything else associated with it. Consquently this is what I continue to do and will do so probably for the remainder of my life. I was told about 18 months ago by my Doctor that I will NEVER be able to drive! (Please contain your excitement that thetrouts bad luck will not be on the roads also )

[thetrout]

cant be arsed to get to the station in time to buy a ticket

Oh come on vacman. I think that is slightly unfair. I agree with your latter points however.

In my case I cannot drive and have to rely on Public Transport. (Most commonly owned in Zummerset by the same parent company who owns the company you work for )

Lets take the example I am travelling on the 20:22 departure from Frome Town Centre to Bath intending to get an onward train to Taunton. Would I be expected to check for roadworks along the bus route? Checking that every single day would be pretty mundane (Not lazy, more tedious I'd say?). Even so that doesn't elliminate the possibility that a driver crashing into the regular stationary vehicles in Norton St. Phillip. (Which regularly ends up causing delay and accidents do frequently happen there).

Are you saying that if I then got to the station late because the bus gets delayed that it is my fault?

Ok I could buy a ticket from the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s at Bath your right. But if I was making that journey from Bath Spa my ticket would not be able to be sold from a TVM

Now can I ask you and please be honest three questions based on if you were working the train onwards to Bristol that I would catch having been delayed by that bus.:

1) If I approached you on the platform as the train was there and asked to buy a ticket from you for travel on your train, How would you process that? i) Tell me to get the next one? and cause me further delay as XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) only run every hour to Taunton? ii) Allow me to board sell me a ticket? iii) Something else?

2) I boarded your train without a ticket because I was travelling First Class and you were dispatching from Coach A. Once Boarded I then went to find you to purchase a ticket. What process would you follow: i) Sell me a ticket ii) Penalty Fare me?

3) Same as above but I seated myself in First Class but had my railcard and payment method on the table at the ready. Also I knew the fare I require and it's associated cost.

[grahame]

This is the reason why I tried to come up with ideas to avoid this drawback of train travel.

And (IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion)) we need such a scheme - one that's practical.  "Practical", by the way, is different to something that the doubters who will be looking for problems because they're set in current ways. 

Firstly - online ticketing and printing should give many more people the opportunity of being ticketed when they arrive at the station.  Cut the queues at the "pickup prebooked" TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine), and allowing advanced ticket sales the previous day for passengers joining at stations without any vending facilities at all.

Second - a sign on each platform - "Join here if you haven't bought your ticket yet and tell the train manager as you do", and dispatch the train from that point.  That way, the train manager know who's looking for a ticket.  Could the volumes be handled?   Yes - by having internet fares a pound cheaper than TVM / Booking office tickets, and on-train tickets a pound more expensive than the TVM / Clerk (if available) or Internet (if not).

Thirdly - let PlusBus tickets be sold on the bus on the way to the station, perhaps with a much wider area.

It's quite likely (and intended  ) that some of these things would bring social changes like more people using buses to the station, and the ability of the system to take an increase in passengers without lots more TVMs ...

cant be arsed to get to the station in time to buy a ticket

Oh come on vacman. I think that is slightly unfair. I agree with your latter points however.

In my case I cannot drive and have to rely on Public Transport. (Most commonly owned in Zummerset by the same parent company who owns the company you work for )

I have to agree with thetrout that if you're making a journey with First Bus and connecting onto a First Train, and you allow good connection time, then it's immoral of the train operator to penalise you for missing your advance train or not having time to buy your onward ticket if you turned up at the bus stop at least 2 minutes prior to the advertised bus departure time.

[swrural]

Good ideas Grahame, unlike mine.

I won't answer Dominic' points about car vs train bus (a bit too long, although willing to).  In the end people vote with their wallet and their perceptions of value and convenience.  TheTrout can't, due to the reasons he helpfully supplied.  Understood.  I don't expect either of you are aware I was a champion for sustainable and socially inclusive transport.  Believe me, I do know how to play devil's advocate and do not wish to be disingenuous.

I just know only too well how fat old councillors who drive big cars view the subject we are discussing here, when they are asked to provide funding for better public transport facilities for those who cannot drive.

[grahame]

Don't be so sure to rule out your idea, swrural.    I don't know if you've ever travelled on the north east corridor of the USA, from Washington DC^▸ (Direct Current) to New York, but on the regional trains there, the conductor puts coloured tabs above people's seats as he checks the tickets;   not sure that I understand exactly how it works, but I think it's probably quite hard to dodge.