Parking Offence at Twyford Station

[whole diary]

[jacquio]

Having parked briefly at Twyford Station yesterday (approx 2 hours) I came back to find a notice slapped on my windscreen from Apcoa stating that they had reasonable cause to believe that the following parking contravention had occurred:
05- Parked over two bays

I had parked on an invisible line ie just small boxes at the back of the space, none in the front  when driving in.  There were plenty of spaces around me and I was not causing an obstruction.

I have searched the web and  found a number of people have been advised not to respond.  Can anyone clarify that this the right thing to do.
thanks

[JayMac]

If you've received a 'Parking Charge Notice' or something similarly worded then that will likely be nothing more than a speculative invoice.

Parking otherwise than in accordance with clearly signed rules is possibly a Railway Byelaw offence, but it would need to made clear on the notice that the 'offence' committed was contrary to Byelaw 14. Also if money is being asked for, paid direct to APCOA^▸ (Car parking company used at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - controlled stations in the area), then it can't be a Byelaw offence as any penalty for breach of Railway Byelaws can only be imposed by a Magistrates Court.

Without more details about the notice you've received I couldn't say for definite that you should ignore it, but the likelihood is that it is a private parking ticket which would not be legally enforceable in a criminal court. APCOA could only pursue a private parking ticket/charge/invoice in the County Court but then only for the actual amount 'lost'. That would be the cost of one parking space.

Private parking companies don't 'do' civil claims in court because they know they're on a hiding to nothing. Instead preferring to issue speculative invoices masquerading as penalty charges in the hope that people will not check the legal position and just pay up. If you do ignore though, expect a series of letters from 'solicitors' and 'collection agencies'. These too can be ignored, or you can counter with a claim for harassment if they continue demanding money.

A scan (redacted of personal information) or a transcript of the wording relating to the 'offence' committed (and whether a payment is being asked for) from the ticket would be helpful for further advice.

Edited to add more information and the disclaimer - I am not a lawyer. 

[Chris from Nailsea]

Meanwhile: welcome to the Coffee Shop forum, jacquio. 

[adc82140]

Don't respond. I got an identical "parking over 2 spaces" invoice 3 years ago. The following will happen:

A letter from APCOA^▸ (Car parking company used at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - controlled stations in the area)- they'll get your address from the DVLA^▸ (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency).

Ignore it.

Then a letter will come from "Roxburghe Debt Collectors" with red writing on.

Ignore it.

Then you'll get another "Roxburghe" letter stating that legal action may start

Ignore it.

Then you'll get a letter from "Graham White Solicitors". This is just in fact another desk at Roxburge

Ignore it.

Then that's it. 3 years later and I've heard nothing more. Remember, they can't send bailiffs round, they can't harm your credit rating. They may use pseudo legalese to suggest this, but they can't. As Bignosemac said, the only people who can issue railway byelaw fines are magistrates' courts.

Under no circumstances make contact with them.

Quite frankly I'm surprised they're still at this one after the negative publicity in the Wokingham Times.

Do a search for APCOA/Roxburge/Graham White at moneysavingexpert.com

Drop me a PM if you'd like to see copies of the letters you'll get. They're quite entertaining 

[argg]

Jacquio

I agree with everything that has been said (Disclaimer: I also am not a lawyer)

Ignore the notice, do not appeal or respond in any way. I had exactly the same situation last year again at Twyford. 

You will receive a series of letters from Roxburge and Graham White (the same organisation) and they will look exactly like the ones adc82140 has.  They look frightening but they eventually give up and (certainly in my experience one year on) no action will be taken.  When you receive them, treat them as a joke and re-read the numerous threads on here and the ones at Moneysavingexpert.  You are not alone.

In my case I even received a phone call about "the debt you owe".  If this happens try not to engage in conversation just state you do not owe anything and end the call. 

How they have the nerve to do this, after charging ^5.50 a day (more if you pay at the machine) for parking on an unsupervised piece of wasteland is beyond me.

[argg]

Without wishing to go off topic, a couple of thoughts:

Does any know how APCOA^▸ (Car parking company used at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - controlled stations in the area)/Roxburge/Graham White are able to get address details?  Can anyone apply to DVLA^▸ (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency) to get the address of the registered keeper of a vehicle.  Doesn't sound right to me.

Also, we all state "I am not a lawyer" - are there there no lawyers in this forum who are prepared to give some background or confirm why Graham White are allowed to continue in, what might be considered, "demanding money with menaces"?

Just saying...

[jacquio]

thanks everyone.  will take on board what everone has said and won't be doing anthing

[Chris from Nailsea]

I'm glad we were able to help with your query, jacquio. 

However, purely to satisfy our curiosity here: would you mind just letting us know what happens, in due course?

Thanks, Chris. 

[LiskeardRich]

Without wishing to go off topic, a couple of thoughts:

Does any know how APCOA^▸ (Car parking company used at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - controlled stations in the area)/Roxburge/Graham White are able to get address details?  Can anyone apply to DVLA^▸ (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency) to get the address of the registered keeper of a vehicle.  Doesn't sound right to me.

Also, we all state "I am not a lawyer" - are there there no lawyers in this forum who are prepared to give some background or confirm why Graham White are allowed to continue in, what might be considered, "demanding money with menaces"?

Just saying...

I'd have thought that it would potentially be a DPA breach for the DVLA to supply the information. The only parking fines that have legal standings are those issued by the council.

[JayMac]

I'd have thought that it would potentially be a DPA breach for the DVLA^▸ (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency) to supply the information. The only parking fines that have legal standings are those issued by the council.

DVLA state that you must have 'reasonable cause' to request registered keeper details. Private Parking Companies (PPC) are one of the enquirers who DVLA will furnish with name and address details of registered keepers if a breach of  the 'rules' governing the use of the car park is alleged. At ^2.50 a pop it's a nice earner for the DVLA to give out these details to the PPCs.

[jacquio]

Never received a letter from apcoa parking but have just received a letter from roxburgh debt collectors and am going to ignore it. I find it very intimidating though that the have managed to get my address and they now want to charge me ^128.00!

[JayMac]

Ignore this and subsequent letters is indeed the best policy.

An alternative, if you do feel threatened, is to reply alleging harassment and stating that you will take legal action if the letters do not cease.

[adc82140]

To be honest writing to them will serve little purpose.

Firstly, it confirms that you "exist". As far as they're concerned, they're sending a speculative letter to an address that may or may not house the correct person.

Secondly, Roxburghe/Graham White do not do correspondence. It's a waste of time & postage.

Sit tight, don't panic and remember the threats are empty.

I wrote to them, venting my spleen- I got a friend who is more au-fait with legalisms (though not a solicitor) to draft me a letter. Complete waste of time. I got the second Roxburghe letter (the fee will have ballooned) and the "Graham White" letter, then all went silent.

However I wonder if writing to Mark Hopwood stating that one of his agents was harrassing you could work. Never tried that approach.

[Southern Stag]

Just beware, the law is changing in this area has changed. Anybody is now able to claim unpaid parking charges from the registered keeper of the vehicle, only councils can do this at the moment. The laws haven't been tested in the courts yet but any reasonable parking charges should probably be paid now. The letters threatening court action may now have some substance.

[JayMac]

Point taken Southern Stag, but this thread was dealing with an alleged 'offence' that took place before the new laws were enacted on 1st October 2012. The new legislation is not retrospective.

Whilst the new laws are yet to be tested, the only additional power granted to Private Parking Companies (PPCs) is the right to pursue the registered keeper for any debt incurred following contravention of a car park's rules. An important power PPCs have had to give up in exchange for the right to pursue the registered keeper is the right to clamp or tow away a vehicle. Clamping and towing away on private land is now illegal.

It's an interesting piece of legislation seeing as it does away with centuries of contract law. For the first time the courts may be able to enforce a debt on someone who didn't incur that debt or even enter into the contract. I await with interest the first court cases under this new legislation. That is of course if the PPC resorts to court. Nothing else has changed regarding the legal position of enforceability of these 'Parking Charge' notices/speculative invoices. And the new legislation doesn't force you to name the driver if it wasn't you. The PPC can only 'invite' you to name the driver.

And to correct one small point, it isn't 'anybody' who is now able to claim unpaid parking charges from the registered keeper. Only parking enforcement companies who are members of the British Parking Association^s (BPA) approved operator scheme (AOS) are now allowed to obtain vehicle keepers^ details from the DVLA^▸ (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency).

A final point in regard to the new legislation. It may actually be worth appealing these charges now, at least initially. First, appeal to the PPC, if that is turned down you will then have a right to appeal to a new independent appeals service, POPLA (Parking On Private Land Appeals). Each appeal to POPLA will cost the PPC ^27+VAT^▸ (Value Added Tax). Advice I've seen elsewhere, including legal opinion, is that if both appeals are unsuccessful then you can continue as was the case before the new legislation and ignore any demands for payment from the PPC.

I remain, as always, most definitely not a lawyer. Anyone receiving a 'parking charge' from a PPC is still advised to seek legal advice before deciding on a course of action (or inaction!)