Journey starting at a station with no ticket facilities. Must you buy at an interchange station?

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

Moderator note: This discussion on the finer points of where and when you should buy a ticket when you've started your journey from a station with no facilities, has been split from another thread as the points raised had drifted from the original thread's subject. bignosemac

It's a real nuisance when travelling beyond Temple Meads, as it means queueing for a ticket, and I have missed my onward connection before now.

To pick up on this one point.

You must buy a ticket at the earliest opportunity, BUT you need not delay your journey doing so. If you've been unable to by on board inward to Temple Meads and have insufficient time to purchase before your next train leaves, then it would be reasonable to purchase on that next train.

I've only had a problem doing this once when, through no fault of my own, I got as far as Bracknell without having had an opportunity to purchase. Admittedly I did enter a world of pain with an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) at Bracknell gateline but once all was explained I was allowed to purchase and the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) that was being written was torn up. I got some goodwill compo from SWT^▸ (South West Trains) as well for being unnecessarily delayed at my destination.

[TonyK]

Thanks, bignosemac, I shall bear that in mind should I have the same problem again. I've moved house since my greatest use of the line, so no longer leave the car at Redland Parkway very often, but I always worried about being slapped with a penalty fare if I didn't get a ticket first.

[John R]

It's a real nuisance when travelling beyond Temple Meads, as it means queueing for a ticket, and I have missed my onward connection before now.

You must buy a ticket at the earliest opportunity, BUT you need not delay your journey doing so. If you've been unable to by on board inward to Temple Meads and have insufficient time to purchase before your next train leaves, then it would be reasonable to purchase on that next train.

Presumably that technically only works if your connection is more than the minimum recommended at Temple Meads?

[JayMac]

I see nothing wrong in making a shorter connection. This isn't about compensation for delays where minimum connection times would have to be taken into account.

The Penalty Fares Policy says:

Changing Trains.
A passenger who changes onto a penalty fares train at a penalty fares station may normally be charged a penalty fare if ticket facilities were available at the interchange station and warning notices were displayed where they could be seen by anyone changing onto the penalty fares train. However, under conditions 2 & 3 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, the full normal range of tickets must be made available to any passenger who started their journey at a station where either no ticket issuing facilities existed, or those that were available were limited to an extent that the passenger was unable to purchase the appropriate ticket for the journey they wished to make. In these circumstances, a passenger should not be expected to buy a ticket at the interchange station if they do not have enough time to do so without missing their connection. If it is not possible to check whether or not ticket facilities were available at the station where the passenger started their journey (which may be a station run by a different train company), a penalty fare should not be charged.

No mention there of minimum connection times needing to be adhered to. Even 10 minutes at Bristol TM^‡(resolve) may not be time enough to either queue at the gateline or go to the ticket windows and purchase. Also your incoming train could be running a few minutes late.

It would be perverse, in my opinion, for a passenger to be PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'d or issued a full fare UFN^‡(resolve) when the inability to purchase a ticket is the fault of the rail industry and not a mistake or deliberate action on the part of the passenger.

As mentioned, I've only experienced a problem once but that was a coming together of many circumstances; late running, failed Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) and tight connection, that saw me get all the way to Bracknell without having had an opportunity to purchase.

There are other occasions when I've been changing at Bristol Temple Meads after arriving on an inward local service where I've not had a chance to buy my ticket and I've decided not to risk queueing lest I miss the connection I want to make.

[TonyK]

I like it! I really must start reading the small print about these things.

[EBrown]

Changing Trains.
A passenger who changes onto a penalty fares train at a penalty fares station may normally be charged a penalty fare if ticket facilities were available at the interchange station and warning notices were displayed where they could be seen by anyone changing onto the penalty fares train. However, under conditions 2 & 3 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, the full normal range of tickets must be made available to any passenger who started their journey at a station where either no ticket issuing facilities existed, or those that were available were limited to an extent that the passenger was unable to purchase the appropriate ticket for the journey they wished to make. In these circumstances, a passenger should not be expected to buy a ticket at the interchange station if they do not have enough time to do so without missing their connection. If it is not possible to check whether or not ticket facilities were available at the station where the passenger started their journey (which may be a station run by a different train company), a penalty fare should not be charged.

However, Byelaws make no mention of acceptable waiting times etc; and I would think that FC^‡(resolve) would have no issue with prosecuting you.

[JayMac]

However, Byelaws make no mention of acceptable waiting times etc; and I would think that FC^‡(resolve) would have no issue with prosecuting you.

I assume you mean First Capital Connect (FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect))? They'd be on a hiding to nothing if they did. Yes, they are quite robust in prosecuting ticketless travel and they have made the odd mistake, but in this scenario they'd likely fail if they attempted prosecution. I don't think they'd even try.

In my opinion, the absence from the Byelaws of details about interchange stations and minimum connection times doesn't give a TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) more chance of a successful prosecution.

We're talking about journeys beginning at stations with no ticket facilities, or when an opportunity has not arisen to buy on board your first train. What is available after that is irrelevant when it comes to the Byelaw on ticketless travel:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

No mention of interchange stations or minimum connection times. A prosecution could only go ahead under Byelaw 18 if there were facilities at the station where the journey began. Under Byelaw 18 there is nothing that says the passenger is compelled to seek out ticketing facilities on their journey when they've started from a station that has no facilities. That is a station with no ticket office, no Ticket Vending Machine and no Permit To Travel machine. If there are machines they have to be in working order.

I'd be very surprised if a Byelaw 18 prosecution was successful when the TOC is attempting to prosecute someone for not buying a ticket where they changed trains, when they started their journey at a station with no facilities. I've certainly not heard of such a case yet.

All that said, if you have time and it won't delay your journey, then by all means purchase your ticket at the interchange station.

[Brucey]

I assume you mean First Capital Connect (FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect))? They'd be on a hiding to nothing if they did. Yes, they are quite robust in prosecuting ticketless travel and they have made the odd mistake, but in this scenario they'd likely fail if they attempted prosecution. I don't think they'd even try.

I wouldn't put it past them.  I've been threatened with "a ^1000 fine and 6 months in prison" having arrived at Bedford Midland from Woburn Sands without a ticket.

That didn't really wash with me and I think my glaring face spoke a thousand words.  Next thing, I was being charged just ^3.10 (the railcard discounted return fare that I'd asked for).

[JayMac]

Which reinforces my point. They'd be on a hiding to nothing if they attempted a prosecution.

It's not on, however, that RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) can make baseless threats and could actually trouser more money from an unsuspecting passenger than necessary.

That's why my advice, when not holding a ticket through no fault of your own, is to only pay the fare that would've payable had there been facilities available at your start station. You then aren't already out of pocket and have time and opportunity to mount a defence should the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) decide to pursue the matter.

If you've done nothing wrong then a prosecution can not succeed.

[vacman]

But byelaw 18(2) requires the traveller to only have had the opportunity to purchase a ticket before it is shown, that opportunity could (and has been successfully argued in court) be that there was a guard on the previous train or that there were facilities at your interchange station. In such case the RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) would not ask for any money at the time as the matter would be reported.

[JayMac]

Byelaw 18(2)?

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

Not sure what you are saying here vacman. You can not be in breach of either Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if there was no opportunity to purchase a ticket at the station where you started your journey, so says Byelaw 18(3)(i).

There is no mention in the Byelaws of other opportunities, be they on board or at an interchange. Can you point me to a case where someone has been prosecuted (as you say it has been successfully argued in court) having not had an opportunity to purchase a ticket at their start station.

An RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) may well report, but the likelihood of a prosecution is, in my opinion, zero. Unless there are other offences commited.

If the RPI refuses the fare due then all that can be collected at a later date is that fare.

[TonyK]

This all goes to suggest that the unfortunate innocent may well pony up big money when confronted by an official, whereas the savvy travvy with knowledge of the rules will stand his ground, and get the supersaver return, plus a discount for inconvenience. Tjat doesn't appeal to my sense of fair play.

[JayMac]

I totally agree FTN. (Must stop saying that!)

The deck really is stacked in favour of the rail industry. They have Penalty Fares, Byelaws and the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 at their disposal. Coupled with a fares systems that is extremely complex with many pitfalls for the unwary.

All I can do is arm myself with as much knowledge of the system as possible and offer advice where appropriate.

I don't condone deliberate fare evasion, but will always side with the individual when they have been caught in one of the many pitfalls, through little or no fault of their own.

I am however most definitely not a lawyer and anyone facing a Penalty Fare, Byelaw prosecution or worse should seek as much advice as possible. My main piece of advice is to pay or offer to pay only the fare due when challenged. If you have done nothing wrong then that'll be the end of the matter. If a Penalty Fare has been correctly issued then you have time to pay the balance after seeking advice.

[EBrown]

Yes, I was referring to First Capital Connect (whose official abbreviation is FC^‡(resolve) not CC or FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) (Although the latter is regularly used, a little like FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (actually GW^▸ (Great Western))! )).

Would they be on a hiding to nothing? Plenty of people incriminate themselves when writing their version of events or while they are being questioned. This is why First Group's prosecution letters do not specifically say what they will prosecute you under as they reserve the right to decide later. Equally plenty of people settle out of court to avoid a [threatened] criminal record.

I wasn't aware, at the time of writing my first message that this person had travelled from a station with no facilities. You are correct, Byelaw 18 doesn't apply in the situation you have described.

[EBrown]

A TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) which is card-only *I believe*, in FGWs^▸ (First Great Western) mind, constitutes full working order.

NB: Edited to reflect that this is solely my opinion and *isn't* based on any evidence I have in my inbox and that I *cannot* distribute.