Local stations in the West to be axed?

[whole diary]

[IndustryInsider]

I agree with II. However this info is not available in the public domain as far as I know.

Is it not available to each bidder so that they can effectively plan their bid, or do they just get the plain usage figures?

Eventualy new trains will be used on London to Penzance services.
These will probably be some form of multiple unit, about which I have misgivings, as posted elswhere.

An advantage of multiple units though is that one could run a service that divides en-route, not to serve two different destinations as is common, but both portions to serve the same desinations though with different calling points.

Think for example of a 12 coach train running fast from London to Taunton where it divides.
Front 6 for Exeter, Plymouth, and Penzance.
Rear 6, all stations to Penzance.

That would give a fast service for the principle stations, together with a reasonable service frequency at the less used stations. No one would have to change, though some might choose to if this saved time.

Unlike dedicated fast and slow trains from London, this type of service would only take up one path on the congested part of the route near London.

If passenger numbers continue to grow one might even justify an 18 car train.
Front 6, fast to Penzance
Mid 6, slow to Penzance
Rear 6, terminate at Taunton.

Interesting idea, and worthy of consideration I would have thought depending on what type of train eventually works down to Cornwall.

I don't pretend to know a huge amount about the Cornish network, but with a split at Exeter the fast train would go five minutes ahead of the slow one calling (presumably) at Dawlish, Teignmouth, Newton Abbot, Totnes, Ivybridge, and Plymouth.  Dawlish, Teignmouth and Ivybridge stops could be rotated for every other train.

That would then put it around 15-20 minutes behind the fast service from Plymouth with the extra stops it would then arrive at Penzance maybe around 10-15 minutes before the next fast train an hour later.

I'd suggest that the fast train also calls after Plymouth at St. Austell, Truro and Camborne (and maybe Liskeard and Bodmin Parkway on alternate trains) to make it useful to more of Cornwall and give it viable passenger numbers, and that the idea of running an 18-car train would never realistically see the light of day, but apart from that is his idea workable?  You get the two trains an hour Penzance to Plymouth that Cornwall wants and needs, but the locals at places like Redruth and Hayle still get the benefits of a direct train.  The opposite could happen in the other direction.

[Zoe]

I'd suggest that the fast train also calls after Plymouth at St. Austell, Truro and Camborne (and maybe Liskeard and Bodmin Parkway on alternate trains) to make it useful to more of Cornwall and give it viable passenger numbers, and that the idea of running an 18-car train would never realistically see the light of day, but apart from that is his idea workable?  You get the two trains an hour Penzance to Plymouth that Cornwall wants and needs, but the locals at places like Redruth and Hayle still get the benefits of a direct train.  The opposite could happen in the other direction.

Interesting choice of Camborne over Redruth when I believe the latter is actually busier.  Although the two towns are separate, combined with Pool they form the largest urban area in Cornwall.  It may well be that this conurbation only needs one station served by most intercity trains and as Redruth also serves as the railhead for the Lizard peninsula and Helston there may well be a case for most intercity trains to call here but not at Camborne.  Line speed through Camborne is also higher so there would be more benefit in not stopping there.

[IndustryInsider]

That's a fair point, Zoe.

[LiskeardRich]

As for running trains fast from Penzance to Plymouth calling only at Truro, I can see this discouraging rail use if journey times are extended by people from other stations having to change at Truro or Plymouth.

Camborne and St Austell have greater population than Truro, so would be more priority than Truro based on population spread.
truro has a population approx 20k, camborne approx 40k, St Austell approx 23k. Therefore Those two warrant more fast trains in my thoughts.

[Zoe]

Camborne and St Austell have greater population than Truro, so would be more priority than Truro based on population spread.
truro has a population approx 20k, camborne approx 40k, St Austell approx 23k. Therefore Those two warrant more fast trains in my thoughts.

Redruth is busier though.  The 40000 for Camborne is the combined population of the Camborne-Pool-Redurth conurbation which is the largest urban area in Cornwall.

[LiskeardRich]

Redruth has better parking facilities and interlinking bus services from rural outlying areas to a large bus layby right outside the ticket office.

[Trowres]

You need to know where the revenue is coming from, i.e. the numbers of high fares vs. low fare users to make a sensible judgement. 
<snip>
Fortunately most rail managers understand these complexities but daren't voice it because of the unwelcome noise they would create but it is the politicians who do not.

There are two sides to the "sensible judgement". The rail operator is interested only in the size of the fare (vs. the cost of carrying the passenger). However the value of the journey to the passenger and to the nation as a whole is probably not closely correlated with the length of the journey. That's why DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) finds it necessary to specify minimum number of trains calling at each station.

I'm curious to know what prevailed in the days pre-1948 when private rail companies had somewhat less detailed regulation.

[broadgage]

If passenger numbers continue to grow one might even justify an 18 car train.
Front 6, fast to Penzance
Mid 6, slow to Penzance
Rear 6, terminate at Taunton.

I think that might cause a bit of a problem with the length of platforms at stations like - Paddington?

Yes, platform lengthening would be required, and would be a costly and disruptive matter at Paddington.
My proposal does however have two major advantages.
Firstly, no other platforms need lengthening, Taunton already has very long platforms, and beyond Taunton the trains would be no longer than now.
Secondly only one path is required from Paddington and not 2 or 3, an important matter as the railway gets busier and potentialy more congested.

[JayMac]

Firstly, no other platforms need lengthening, Taunton already has very long platforms, and beyond Taunton the trains would be no longer than now.

Reading?

[vacman]

Camborne and St Austell have greater population than Truro, so would be more priority than Truro based on population spread.
truro has a population approx 20k, camborne approx 40k, St Austell approx 23k. Therefore Those two warrant more fast trains in my thoughts.

Redruth is busier though.  The 40000 for Camborne is the combined population of the Camborne-Pool-Redurth conurbation which is the largest urban area in Cornwall.

Truro has a FAR higher rail footfall and is also a railhead for the Roseland Peninsular, Perranporth, St Agnes and even Newquay as a lot of people from Newquay drive to Truro to catch trains. If a stop on fast trains was needed then Redruth is miles ahead as again, it is a railhead for most of the Lizard, Helston and other areas, Camborne may well have a larger population but that certainly isn't reflected in the footfall nor the amount of people i see on a daily basis at each of these stations. TBH^▸ (to be honest) you could argue for all of the current stations but that won't speed up the service which is what we all want, to suggest cutting stops east of Plymouth doesn't really stack up as most of the Cornish trains already are relatively fast east of Plymouth but agreed, some Totnes, Newton Abbot and Tivvy stops could be withdrawn. Tivvy in particular as there is quite a big time penalty for stopping there due to the relatively high line speed.

[Zoe]

There's also a time penalty for stopping at Taunton as like Tiverton Parkway the line speed is 100 mph so I'd have thought at least one extra up train could have a Taunton call removed.  Currently there are two down trains that run fast between Reading and Exeter.  The issue with not calling at Newton Abbot and Taunton though is that Newton Abbot serves Torbay with a population of over 100000 and Taunton also serves a large area.  You don't have to call every train at these stations though so I think if Totnes, Newton Abbot, Tiverton Parkway and Taunton were all removed from some of the Penzance trains there would be quite a time saving east of Plymouth.  You could save even more time by running non-stop from Plymouth to Reading but Exeter is too important to not stop at.

[broadgage]

Firstly, no other platforms need lengthening, Taunton already has very long platforms, and beyond Taunton the trains would be no longer than now.

Reading?

Fast to Taunton ?

[Zoe]

Fast to Taunton ?

Reading is like Exeter though, too important not to call at.

[TerminalJunkie]

If a stop on fast trains was needed then Redruth is miles ahead as again, it is a railhead for most of the Lizard, Helston and other areas, Camborne may well have a larger population but that certainly isn't reflected in the footfall nor the amount of people i see on a daily basis at each of these stations.
[...]
some Totnes, Newton Abbot and Tivvy stops could be withdrawn. Tivvy in particular as there is quite a big time penalty for stopping there due to the relatively high line speed.

Tiverton Parkway is also a railhead for much of North and East Devon, and - other than Penzance, Truro and St Austell - has a higher footfall than every station in Cornwall.

[vacman]

If a stop on fast trains was needed then Redruth is miles ahead as again, it is a railhead for most of the Lizard, Helston and other areas, Camborne may well have a larger population but that certainly isn't reflected in the footfall nor the amount of people i see on a daily basis at each of these stations.
[...]
some Totnes, Newton Abbot and Tivvy stops could be withdrawn. Tivvy in particular as there is quite a big time penalty for stopping there due to the relatively high line speed.

Tiverton Parkway is also a railhead for much of North and East Devon, and - other than Penzance, Truro and St Austell - has a higher footfall than every station in Cornwall.

Maybe so but they have other rail based options i.e. use the Barny line, as for the Torbay arguement for stopping at NTA^» (Newton Abbott - next trains), easy, change at EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) instead as all trains from Torbay go through to EXD anyway (at the moment).