Extending Crossrail to Reading - ongoing discussion, merged topic

[whole diary]

[gpn01]

According to the timetable planner for Cross rail, Maidenhead-Paddington will be 37 mins. So, far worse than the current 21 mins that it takes. If you work in The City however, it'll take only 9 minutes from Paddington to Liverpool Street. Means that Maidenhead-City will be 46 mins compared with typically 55 mins currently. The bad news for Maidenhead commuters is that the Reading extension now means that the trains will probably be standing only now as pax will take seats at Reading and Twyford.

[Btline]

Exactly! It's not about it taking 15 minutes to change at Paddington.

It's about Crossrail taking you DIRECT to your destination without ANY tube. Maidenhead to the City will be QUICKER (45 mins) on crossrail than as currently (55 mins taking a fast service and changing onto the tube). Plus 4 trains per hour instead of 2 trains per hour, further reducing average journey times.

Finally, you'll have a seat all the way, and air conditioning.

There will be no need for HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) to stop at Maidenhead and Slough on the main lines.

[gpn01]

Exactly! It's not about it taking 15 minutes to change at Paddington.

It's about Crossrail taking you DIRECT to your destination without ANY tube. Maidenhead to the City will be QUICKER (45 mins) on crossrail than as currently (55 mins taking a fast service and changing onto the tube). Plus 4 trains per hour instead of 2 trains per hour, further reducing average journey times.

Finally, you'll have a seat all the way, and air conditioning.

There will be no need for HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) to stop at Maidenhead and Slough on the main lines.

Not true. It'd be better to take fast train Maidenhead-Paddington (21 mins), transfer at Paddington (say 10 mins) and then 9 mins on Crossrail to Liverpool Street. That's 40 mins instead of Cross rail 46.

[John R]

So, I have a choice of a through train at 46 minutes, on which if boarding at Maidenhead I know I will get a seat, on which I can park myself for the whole journey.

Or alternatively, I save 6 minutes, and likely have to stand, maybe squashed in the vestibule to Paddington, then change, and likely have to stand again for the onward journey to Liverpool St.

For the sake of 6 minutes, I'd go for Crossrail any day.

[eightf48544]

All this speculation just vindicates what I've been saying ever since the latest Crossrail scheme was announced terminating at Maidenhead. It won't work West of Paddington. Fine in the East 12tph to Shenfield approx 12 miles out - 12 to Abbey Wood > 12 miles out. 24 tph to Padd. Fine

Then only 10tph out of the tunnel meaning 14 tph have to terminate at Eastbourne Terrace so every other train plus 2 terminating per hour in the peak detraining all their passengers. Also whether it goes to Maidenhead  aprrox 25 miles or Reading 36 miles it's an all a stations Metro service. So from either place journey times to Padd are bound to be longer.

The only saving grace of it going to Reading is that it less disruptive of the heavy flows of commuters in both directions who use the train to and from Stations between Reading and Ealing Broadway.

How you fit in semis with the 10tph stoppers from Hayes inwards on the Relief lines I don't know.

Dynamic loops might help, as would more Main Relief crossovers, (both left and right and paired for parallel movements like Dolphin Junction right. but they'd have to be at least 70 mph if not 90 depending on location which would make the "bean counters" blanch pure white at the cost.

Cross Rail is an East London project desoigned to relieve the Central line from Stratford and the North Kent from Abbey Wood plus giving more links to Canary Wharf It's unfortunate it had to go somewhere in the West and the TV got lumbered!

Corrected Dolphin Jn right not left

[gpn01]

So, I have a choice of a through train at 46 minutes, on which if boarding at Maidenhead I know I will get a seat, on which I can park myself for the whole journey.

Or alternatively, I save 6 minutes, and likely have to stand, maybe squashed in the vestibule to Paddington, then change, and likely have to stand again for the onward journey to Liverpool St.

For the sake of 6 minuted, I'd go for Crossrail any day.

Reallyvdepends on whether you're likely to get a seat at Maidenhead. My point is that if all services start at Maidenhead tge n you have a chance. If it's starting from Reading and via Twyford then you may be standing.

[TaplowGreen]

............from a personal perspective, where do Burnham and Taplow fit in, and what sort of service from either FGW^▸ (First Great Western)/Crossrail can be expected from these stations?

[eightf48544]

As a fellow Taplow user as far as I can see in the London direction we get 4 tph Crossrail all stations.

Whether; now 2 tph will be going on to Reading we will still get an additional  2 tph TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) service (the Slough to Reading shuttle) as well I don't know.

It will be one of the issues I shall raise with Maidenehad and Marlow Pasengers Association to see If I can get any clarity, but I don't hold out much hope. Although it appears some Crossrail trains will be going to Reading the exact pattern of services to intermediate stations between Reading - Ealing Broadway seems vague to say the least.

As I've said Crossrail whether it goes to Realing or Maidenhead completely disrupts the current Reading,   intermediate stations to Ealing Boadway service.

[paul7575]

As a fellow Taplow user as far as I can see in the London direction we get 4 tph Crossrail all stations.

Whether; now 2 tph will be going on to Reading we will still get an additional  2 tph TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) service (the Slough to Reading shuttle) as well I don't know.

I think it's guaranteed that the Slough - Reading shuttle will not happen - there are enough official statements that the necessary alterations at Slough are cancelled.   It's mentioned in the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)'s written statement on this subject.  The passenger panel information (shown in ChrisB's post #151 earlier) certainly reads as though the shuttle is binned.

The only fundamental question AFAICS^▸ (As Far As I Can See) is whether the remaining 2 tph Reading - Paddington will be a through service from somewhere west of Reading or not.

Paul

[IndustryInsider]

My point is that if all services start at Maidenhead tge n you have a chance. If it's starting from Reading and via Twyford then you may be standing.

I would very much doubt that.  As others have said, I would expect a very small percentage of London commuters from Reading to use Crossrail for their entire journey to work.  They will use the fast IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)/HST^▸ (High Speed Train) trains which, if anything, will operate on a more frequent basis than now.  So, that leaves local commuters out of Reading and those who join at Twyford - that isn't going to to fill a 200m long train.

I would expect there to be a few, maybe not quite as many as now, but a few fast trains from Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough to London in the rush hour, but whether they will be through Crossrail trains, or just existing style Paddington terminators is difficult to say.  Stephen Hammond's statement about NR^» (Network Rail - home page) looking into increasing the number of fast trains from Reading to Paddington makes no mention that these will be Crossrail trains as some have assumed.

Finally, the Reading extension will be very useful for inbound commuters to the town, but pretty useless for outbound commuters - but it was never about that.  It will also remove the need for rather superfluous Reading to Slough stoppers (with the associated infrastructure costs and ongoing conflicting moves at Slough) not to mention the additional paths between Maidenhead and Slough that they would have taken up.

I am very pleased this extension has finally been announced.

[johoare]

So, I have a choice of a through train at 46 minutes, on which if boarding at Maidenhead I know I will get a seat, on which I can park myself for the whole journey.

Or alternatively, I save 6 minutes, and likely have to stand, maybe squashed in the vestibule to Paddington, then change, and likely have to stand again for the onward journey to Liverpool St.

For the sake of 6 minuted, I'd go for Crossrail any day.

Reallyvdepends on whether you're likely to get a seat at Maidenhead. My point is that if all services start at Maidenhead tge n you have a chance. If it's starting from Reading and via Twyford then you may be standing.

Sounds like JohnR has inside information on how crossrail will provide seats for all Maidenhead passengers Seriously though.. Crossrail is not useful to most Maidenhead to London commuters who head to all parts of the capital.. Yes I agree if I happened to be going somewhere on the crossrail route I may just consider a 40 minute journey to Paddington rather than a 20 minute one in rush hour plus changes  though I'm not so sure...

[John R]

No I don't, but enjoy a challenge especially when it involves numbers!

Maidenhead has around 3,300 commuters using season tickets (source ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) station usage estimates, assuming 260 days use a year).  Let's assume that 75% of this travels eastwards in the morning (I'm using this because of comments that Reading is also a significant source of inward commuter flow, but it's clearly open to challenge). That would give around 2,500 passengers, say spread over the 3 hour period 0600 to 0900.

However, that will be an underestimate as some passengers will buy daily tickets. On the flip side, I haven't allowed for any of those season tickets being used for inward commuting, or the few whose daily commute occurs outside the rush hour.

The Class 345 is expected to have 450 seats. So 12 workings over the 3 hour period gives a total of 5,400 seats against the 2,500 estimate. However, some of the units will already have pax on board from Reading and Twyford, and the load will probably peak between 0700 and 0800. Nevertheless, given main line services will remain, and still be attractive to some, I suspect there will be room for all to be seated from Maidenhead.

Finally, I confidently predict that very soon after opening, if not before, the units will be lengthened from 9 to 11, as all the predictions are that Crossrail will become very heavily loaded in the central section almost from day 1.

 

[Electric train]

No I don't, but enjoy a challenge especially when it involves numbers!

Maidenhead has around 3,300 commuters using season tickets (source ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) station usage estimates, assuming 260 days use a year).  Let's assume that 75% of this travels eastwards in the morning (I'm using this because of comments that Reading is also a significant source of inward commuter flow, but it's clearly open to challenge). That would give around 2,500 passengers, say spread over the 3 hour period 0600 to 0900.

However, that will be an underestimate as some passengers will buy daily tickets. On the flip side, I haven't allowed for any of those season tickets being used for inward commuting, or the few whose daily commute occurs outside the rush hour.

The Class 345 is expected to have 450 seats. So 12 workings over the 3 hour period gives a total of 5,400 seats against the 2,500 estimate. However, some of the units will already have pax on board from Reading and Twyford, and the load will probably peak between 0700 and 0800. Nevertheless, given main line services will remain, and still be attractive to some, I suspect there will be room for all to be seated from Maidenhead.

Finally, I confidently predict that very soon after opening, if not before, the units will be lengthened from 9 to 11, as all the predictions are that Crossrail will become very heavily loaded in the central section almost from day 1.

 

Maidenhead has the Marlow branch feeding into it so you have to up the number of season tickets to reflect the branch. 

Maidenhead also has a high number of inbound commuters in the morning and outbound in the evening, this does make the stairs an interesting challenge even now.

[Btline]

Sounds like JohnR has inside information on how crossrail will provide seats for all Maidenhead passengers Seriously though.. Crossrail is not useful to most Maidenhead to London commuters who head to all parts of the capital.. Yes I agree if I happened to be going somewhere on the crossrail route I may just consider a 40 minute journey to Paddington rather than a 20 minute one in rush hour plus changes  though I'm not so sure...

There will be plenty of seats at Maidenhead as Reading commuters will use HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train).

Crossrail services most parts of London where people work, 2 West End, 2 City, Canary Wharf. Central London is smaller than you think. Many will not need a further tube journey. Everyone else will benefit from a shorter tube journey.

Obviously, as with any change, a small minority may have a longer/ harder journey. But replacing HSTs from Maidenhead with Crossrail is going to benefit most Maidenhead passengers and will benefit all other HST users from Reading and the West.

Why are people thinking that some HSTs will stop at Maidenhead and Slough? Each stop costs at least one path. With a doubling of Bristol HST services I can't see how it will all fit with fast line stops.

Why are people suggesting more crossover from fast to slow. Unless these are flyover junctions, this will eat capacity.

[Southern Stag]

Why are people thinking that some HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) will stop at Maidenhead and Slough? Each stop costs at least one path. With a doubling of Bristol HST services I can't see how it will all fit with fast line stops.

Why are people suggesting more crossover from fast to slow. Unless these are flyover junctions, this will eat capacity.

But with electrification, introduction trains with better acceleration(IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)), Reading remodelling there will be the gain of paths. There is one quite simple reason why some fast FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services will stop at Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough, and that's money. Currently FGW will receive most of the revenue for ticket sales from those stations to London. Once Crossrail comes along, if there were no fast services FGW would receive a much smaller amount of revenue. But if FGW run some fast services then the amount of revenue they receive through ORCATS^▸ (Operational Research Computerised Allocation of Tickets to Services) will not decrease as much. Quite simply FGW will increase their revenue through ORCATS in they provide fast services to Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough.