Extending Crossrail to Reading - ongoing discussion, merged topic

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

I don't think they will, but don't necessarily expect the same number of fast/semi-fast services as a lot *will* travel direct on Crossrail. It'll take you a good 10-15 minutes to get onto Crossrail at PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) and for a lot, that will be longer & more convoluted that getting on the first Crossrail at their departing station.

Don't be surprised either if you find *some* Crossrail trains full to bursting at PAD & having to await an empty one out of the sidings.

[Network SouthEast]

I feel like a scratched record saying this, but the Network Rail London & South East RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy) does suggest a 4tph peak service from Reading to Paddington, all calling at Maidenhead, with calls at either Slough or Twyford (alternating).

[ChrisB]

But that was while Slough had shuttles? And Crossrail went only to Maidenhead?

Things change, the RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy) predates these changes, I really wouldn't rely on it....

[Network SouthEast]

But that was while Slough had shuttles? And Crossrail went only to Maidenhead?

Things change, the RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy) predates these changes, I really wouldn't rely on it....

This is the same RUS that anticipated Crossrail would be extended to Reading. In fact, the RUS believes that eventually 10 Crossrail trains per hour will serve Reading.

RUS's do have a habit of turning in to reality.

[paul7575]

But that was while Slough had shuttles? And Crossrail went only to Maidenhead?

Things change, the RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy) predates these changes, I really wouldn't rely on it....

This is the same RUS that anticipated Crossrail would be extended to Reading. In fact, the RUS believes that eventually 10 Crossrail trains per hour will serve Reading.

RUS's do have a habit of turning in to reality.

If you're referring to the London and SE RUS of 2011 it had this: 

The emerging scenario is of a 24 trains per hour
peak Crossrail service (16 off-peak), all running to/
from locations west of Paddington. This would
create a relatively simple service pattern, based on
the following peak service level:
- 10tph semi-fast to (or via) Heathrow Airport
- 6tph semi-fast on the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line)
- 8tph via a new route to the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) slow lines.

I can't find anything explicitly referring to 10 tph to Reading, but that's not to say it isn't possible when WRatH is completed and taken into account.

Paul

[ChrisB]

So, actually, nowt to (specifically) Reading then?

[paul7575]

So, actually, nowt to (specifically) Reading then?

Not explicitly - as written in 2011 that '6 tph to the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line)' is covered by the 4 x Maidenhead and 2 x West Drayton that we have known about for some time.   All it seems to suggests elsewhere in the RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy) is that the 4 x Maidenhead will get extended to Reading, but no mention of extra Crossrail frequency beyond that basic 6.

But there's a heck of a lot dependent on whether HEX lasts out, and if WRatH ends up as a through service it could be part of Crossrail - no doubt if we wait about 10 years it will all become clear...   

Paul

[ChrisB]

as written in 2011 that '6 tph to the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line)' is covered by the 4 x Maidenhead and 2 x West Drayton that we have known about for some time.   All it seems to suggests elsewhere in the RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy) is that the 4 x Maidenhead will get extended to Reading, but no mention of extra Crossrail frequency beyond that basic 6.

So we know that two of those Maidenhead services are being extended to Reading....so the RUS has been superceded there too....you really can't rely on it being gospel any longer

Doesn't the HEX contract expire at the same time that Crossrail is due to start?

Crossrail ism, correct me if I'm wrong, picking up the Connect Heathrow services...so what might happen if BAA no longer want to pay for HEX?

 

[Network SouthEast]

I can't find anything explicitly referring to 10 tph to Reading, but that's not to say it isn't possible when WRatH is completed and taken into account.

Sorry I keep getting the 10tph Heathrow service muddled up with Reading!

So, actually, nowt to (specifically) Reading then?

The RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy) says this:

Option A1

This option now proposes that the residuals are replaced by additional trains running through the
Crossrail Central London tunnels from the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) route, at least in the longer term.
The resulting peak service pattern on the relief lines is therefore assumed to be:
^ 4tph Heathrow Airport Terminal 4 (stopping)
^ 4tph Reading (semi-fast east of Slough)
^ 2tph Slough (stopping)
^ 2tph West Drayton (stopping).
Under the specific option appraised all the above would run through the new Central London
Crossrail tunnel

Also recommend in conjunction with Option A1 is Option A5. It says about Crossrail:

The resulting peak 16tph Crossrail service pattern has been assumed to be as follows, though
other variations may exist:
^ 8tph Heathrow Airport Terminal 5 (running limited stop on the relief lines)
^ 2tph Heathrow Airport Terminal 4 (running skip-stop on the relief lines)
^ 4tph Reading (running skip-stop on the relief lines), based on Option A1
being implemented
^ 2tph Slough (running skip-stop on the relief lines).
The number of Crossrail services terminating in the Westbourne Park area from the east
would be further reduced from the currently planned 14tph to 8tph at peak times.

The RUS is a rather large document to read. If anyone wants to, it can be download here. In respect of the GWML, Network Rail supports options A1, A2, A3 and A5. It also says F6 is worth pursing (Basingstoke to Paddington services) if the line is electrified, which is now is as part of the electric spine.

[paul7575]

Doesn't the HEX contract expire at the same time that Crossrail is due to start?

There's still a few years after Crossrail starts full operations in May 2019 before the HEX contract runs out.  That's something like 2023 (from memory), so any major changes won't necessarily happen in parallel with Crossrail, there'll be about 4 years to get organised...

Connect transferring to Crossrail will of course happen separately, planned to be in May 2018 (running initially to Paddington HL and doubling to 4 tph).

Paul

[Btline]

There will still be a demand for the fasts from Maidenhead and Slough: even a 40 min journey vs 20 mins?
Crossrail is also not going to go where everybody want to go.

No no no, I have explained this before. In order to maximise capacity on the fast lines out of Paddington, no trains can stop until Reading (where fast services diverge). This will allow 16 tph. Each HST^▸ (High Speed Train) stopping on the fast lines reduces this by 1-2 tph.

Maidenhead and Slough commuters will use Crossrail - most will be able to walk to their destination from a Crossrail station (West End, City or Canary Wharf).
Any journey time increase by using a stopper will be negated by fast electric trains and no changing to the tube.
Maidenhead and Slough services will skip stop as well, they won't stop everywhere.

[stuving]

Doesn't the HEX contract expire at the same time that Crossrail is due to start?

There's still a few years after Crossrail starts full operations in May 2019 before the HEX contract runs out.  That's something like 2023 (from memory), so any major changes won't necessarily happen in parallel with Crossrail, there'll be about 4 years to get organised...

Connect transferring to Crossrail will of course happen separately, planned to be in May 2018 (running initially to Paddington HL and doubling to 4 tph).

Paul

HEX (or HAL) seem to have a different view of what will happen:

Frontline changes to protect future and improve service

26/03/2014 13:29:00

Heathrow Express, Britain^s premium rail-air link, is proposing changes to its frontline customer service roles to prepare for the arrival of Crossrail.

The aims of the proposals put forward are to:

• Improve service for customers by introducing a new a ^customer host^ role
  
• Protect frontline jobs
  
• Implement a proposed pay freeze for all employees during 2014
  
• Help cut operating costs by nearly ^6 million between 2014 and 2019
  
• Position Heathrow Express to compete with Crossrail after it opens in 2018
  
• Position Heathrow Express to run services on the new western rail access between Reading and Heathrow from 2021.

Heathrow Express, which links Paddington with Heathrow in just 15 minutes, has briefed its employees and their trade union representatives. A consultation period began on February 26.

Keith Greenfield, managing director for Heathrow Express, said: "Our proposals offer all existing employees a future role within Heathrow Express.

"Crossrail will be the first direct competition to us since our launch in 1998, and the message is simple: We must be smarter today to compete tomorrow.

"The aim of these proposed changes is to enable our frontline employees to focus fully on delivering an improved service to our customers. This fits with our long-term plan to grow our business the smarter way - retaining existing customers and winning more by giving a top-rate service, rather than simply putting up fares."

He added: "Our proposals will cut our operating costs by nearly ^6 million over the next five years, while avoiding the need for compulsory redundancies and protecting existing employees' futures with the company.

"From 2021 we expect there to be western rail access into Heathrow. Between now and then we must prove we are the best operator to run services on this new line out to Slough and Reading. This is a crucial strand in the future plans for Heathrow Express."

(from https://www.heathrowexpress.com/news/2014-03-26-frontline-changes-to-protect-future-and-improve-servicefrom https://www.heathrowexpress.com/news/2014-03-26-frontline-changes-to-protect-future-and-improve-service)

As to how Crossrail is "direct competition", where Heathrow Connect isn't - I guess he means serious competition.

[Southern Stag]

I don't think they will, but don't necessarily expect the same number of fast/semi-fast services as a lot *will* travel direct on Crossrail. It'll take you a good 10-15 minutes to get onto Crossrail at PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) and for a lot, that will be longer & more convoluted that getting on the first Crossrail at their departing station.

Don't be surprised either if you find *some* Crossrail trains full to bursting at PAD & having to await an empty one out of the sidings.

I don't think it will take anything like 10-15 minutes to change from Mainline to Crossrail services. I can't see it taking any longer than changing on the tube at present. You might allow 10-15 minutes for someone changing for the first time but I doubt it would take a commuter doing the journey every day 15 minutes to change. Changing at Paddington also has the benefit of having a much more frequent Crossrail services, many of which start at Paddington and hence will have plenty of seats available.

[Southern Stag]

Maidenhead and Slough commuters will use Crossrail - most will be able to walk to their destination from a Crossrail station (West End, City or Canary Wharf).
Any journey time increase by using a stopper will be negated by fast electric trains and no changing to the tube.
Maidenhead and Slough services will skip stop as well, they won't stop everywhere.

The journey time increases won't be negated by having through services. Maidenhead-Paddington is currently around 45 minutes on a stopping service, and probably unlikely to be much faster post-Crossrail or 20 minutes on a fast service. Unless you manage to spend 25 minutes changing at Paddington it's going to be quicker to take a fast service to Paddington. With the planned frequency of Crossrail services from Paddington I'd have thought 10 minutes from arriving at Paddington on a mainline service and departing on a Crossrail service would be the longest it would take. That would give a 15 minute saving over a direct Crossrail service.

[a-driver]

We've been lead to believe now that the existing FGW^▸ (First Great Western) service pattern between Reading and Paddington will remain, but the stopping services will call Readng, Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes, Ealing Broadway and London Paddington in both directions.
They've basically said that CrossRail alone would provide no benefits and no real increase in seating capacity.