'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?'

[whole diary]

[BerkshireBugsy]

XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) are unable to process Electron or Solo transactions on board as the Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) does not associate the card numbers as a valid payment method. What we can do is telephone authorise cards which have been declined by the chip and pin, for example when the chip is set for online (as in immediate authorisation) use only.

I am about to be guilty of making a point I have made in other similar threads but IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) I dont think it is reasonable to expect all passengers to understand why some credit cards need online authorisation some of the time. However, as a frequent traveller on services where, quite frankly some pax take the p!ss then I accept there are some travellers who milk these limitations for all they are worth.

[JayMac]

I know my debit cards, both with my previous bank and the new one, are online authorisation only. But the banks never told me this directly or in literature accompanying the card when it was delivered and there is nothing printed on the cards to tell me so. When I first was issued with one of these debit cards, I learnt the hard way that I could not use it in certain places, such as on a train. Fortunately the conductor explained to me why my card was declined and I had sufficient cash to cover the fare. I contacted my bank and they confirmed where I couldn't use my card. Would've have been nice to know this when the card was issued.

The banks could do more to inform their customers of the limitations for some card types. Whilst a few have 'Electronic use only' printed on them, this is rarely explained when the card is first received by the customer.

I've seen queries on the internet from people asking what 'Electronic use only' means. Some say that this only applies to cards loaded with funds such as a Prepaid MasterCard^ Others say it means the card can only be used to buy things over the internet. Others say it can only be used when you are in the presence of the retailer and not on the internet or over the phone.

The correct answer is that an 'Electronic use only' card, be it a debit card or a prepaid credit card can only be used when the retailer/merchant has a terminal that can obtain instant authorisation from the card issuer to ensure funds are available. Merchants shouldn't use offline terminals (such as an Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) machine and accompanying chip and pin device on a train), mag strip swipe, manual imprint or writing the card details on carbon-copy slips. Whilst the merchant is free to use these offline methods, they leave themselves at risk of not receiving the funds from the cardholders bank or receiving a chargeback.

One thing a retailer can do with 'Electronic use only' debit cards, when they don't have an online terminal, is call their 'Merchant Services' to obtain telephone authorisation for the amount of the transaction. This may not always be a practical option, particularly on a train where mobile phone reception is patchy or on one that is making frequent stops. I have however seen this option used successfully by a Train Manager. Telephone authorisation can not be used for VISA Electron though. Although these cards are now only being issued for one type of account, Halifax Easycash, and the remaining ones out there issued by other banks in the past is diminishing.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Well, when I posted the original item, I did rather hope that it would prompt a lively debate here on the forum ^ 

Now, if I may pick up on three points which have been raised here, and relate them specifically to my own local station - Nailsea & Backwell, on the main line between Taunton and Bristol, for the benefit of those who are new here  :

   1. Penalty Fare Notices. There is just one at Nailsea - it is mounted on the railings up on platform 2, facing away from the steps to that platform.  It will only be visible to anyone travelling from platform 1 who has remarkably good eyesight.
   
   2. Choice of cards - Electron / Solo. At Nailsea, the chap in the ticket cabin (part time, weekday morning peak hours only) uses an Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) machine - no telephone / online links.  His customer card validation options as a 'ticket office' point of sale are, therefore, no more than any train manager would have, on board a moving train.

   3. Certain types of card not accepted. At Nailsea, there are no signs anywhere to explain which types of payment card may, or may not, be accepted - either on the ticket office on platform 2 or indeed anywhere else on the station.
   
And, purely as an aside: the two Ticket Vending Machines at Nailsea still display the message 'Pay by cash'. That has not been possible for nearly three years now - and I've almost lost the will to live, trying to persuade First Great Western to remove such misleading messages from their TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) - if only for the very practical reason that it will dissuade potential ram-raiders from believing that there might be a few coins inside said machines ^ 

[Andy W]

At unstaffed stations there is an information poster, on which there is info on how to buy tickets and it has the same message as on booking office windows regarding solo and electron cards.

Wrong - I've just been down to Pershore Station to double check and there is no such message. In fact what it says is "There is no ticket buying facilities at this station. Most tickets for immediate travel can be bought from the on-board team .......
If you board a train without a ticket you may be charged a full single or return fare for your journey plus an additional charge ..."

So you can't buy a ticket at the station and can be penalised if you get on the train without a ticket .......... utterly abysmal.
There is no mention whatsoever regarding Solo / Electron cards.

I recently noticed that you cannot buy anything other than a full fare 'anytime' ticket from Pershore whereas you can get an 'off peak' ticket from Worcester (to Paddington). I assume this is the way of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) enforcing the fact that that you will be charged full fare if you board the train without a ticket (which you are very likely to do from Pershore as there is no method of purchasing a ticket at the station).
So the lowest fare from WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) is ^28.80 but the full fare ^34.50 from PSH.
Oh and before the pedants strike - yes you can go off peak from Pershore if you chose an absurd routeing via Bristol.

[smokey]

   
And, purely as an aside: the two Ticket Vending Machines at Nailsea still display the message 'Pay by cash'. That has not been possible for nearly three years now - and I've almost lost the will to live, trying to persuade First Great Western to remove such misleading messages from their TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) - if only for the very practical reason that it will dissuade potential ram-raiders from believing that there might be a few coins inside said machines ^ 

Chris I too find this sort of thing annoying, in fact of Course, if the TVM say PAY BY CASH then it is a legal requirement that the TVM should accept CASH.

If shomeone would be kind enough to take from the locally displayed noticeboard at Nailsea station the Snail Mail contact  details of the Local Station Manager then Smokey will take Action. I'm sure I can afford 60p for a stamp. 

[JayMac]

I recently noticed that you cannot buy anything other than a full fare 'anytime' ticket from Pershore whereas you can get an 'off peak' ticket from Worcester (to Paddington). I assume this is the way of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) enforcing the fact that that you will be charged full fare if you board the train without a ticket (which you are very likely to do from Pershore as there is no method of purchasing a ticket at the station).
So the lowest fare from WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) is ^28.80 but the full fare ^34.50 from PSH.

My advice. If travelling from Pershore to London on the 1017 or later then ask for the Super Off Peak Single (SSS), Worcester - London Terminals (route: Evesham/Stroud) at ^28.60. Starting short is permitted with this ticket and you should have no problem buying it on board. There are no ticket facilities at Pershore so the full range of tickets should be sold on board. This ^28.60 fare is the cheapest valid ticket for your journey. Do make it clear though that you boarded at Pershore and not Worcester SH/FS else you may be asked why you didn't purchase your ticket from those stations.

The SSS Worcester-London Terminals is also the cheapest option for a single journey from Evesham (1031 or later) Honeybourne (1037) and Moreton -in-Marsh (1049).

Do note however that there are Off Peak tickets available from Pershore, but only for return journeys.

Oh and before the pedants strike - yes you can go off peak from Pershore if you chose an absurd routeing via Bristol.

I'm not sure about that. There doesn't appear to be any valid tickets from Pershore-London Terminals that allow travel via Bristol. Whilst Pershore is associated with Worcester for routeing purposes, Worcester is not a valid routeing point for journeys from Pershore to London as it fails ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here)'s Routeing Guide 'Fare Check Rule'.

Valid Routes from Pershore [PSH] to London Paddington [PAD]:

• Direct trains from Pershore to London Paddington
  
  
• Shortest Route: 66.5 miles
  
  
• Mapped Routes (subject to fares check):
  Oxford - LONDON GROUP:
  
  • CS
    
  • CS + WR
    
  • CS + WX
    
  WORCESTER GROUP - LONDON GROUP:
  
  • CS
    
  • CS + WX
    
  • WR
    
  • WR + WX
    

Thus, because of the fare check rule, only the route on map CS is valid for Pershore - London Paddington

[grahame]

I found some of the fares quoted on this thread incredibly - err - good value and took a closer look at WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)

Anytime single - 35.50
Offpeak single - 37.00
Superoffpeak single - 28.60

Why would anyone buy an offpeak single?

For comparison, I looked at CPM^» (Chippenham - next trains) to PAD - 20 or 30 miles less

Anytime single - 73.00
Offpeak single - 34.50
Superoffpeak single - 27.00

[Southern Stag]

The ^37 Off Peak single ticket is valid via Evesham or Stroud whereas the ^35.50 Anytime single ticket is only valid via Evesham.

[grahame]

The ^37 Off Peak single ticket is valid via Evesham or Stroud whereas the ^35.50 Anytime single ticket is only valid via Evesham.

Ah yes - silly oversight on my part 

[Andy W]

My advice. If travelling from Pershore to London on the 1017 or later then ask for the Super Off Peak Single (SSS), Worcester - London Terminals (route: Evesham/Stroud) at ^28.60. Starting short is permitted with this ticket and you should have no problem buying it on board. There are no ticket facilities at Pershore so the full range of tickets should be sold on board. This ^28.60 fare is the cheapest valid ticket for your journey. Do make it clear though that you boarded at Pershore and not Worcester SH/FS else you may be asked why you didn't purchase your ticket from those stations.

Many thanks BNM, very useful, I was under the impression that you had to travel the full journey.

Grahame my point was more to do with the fact that there are no ticket purchasing provisions at Pershore and the threat to impose a full fare on anybody getting on the train without a ticket is being implemented by not allowing anything other than full fare from Pershore.


Edited to fix quote. bignosemac

[JayMac]

Many thanks BNM, very useful, I was under the impression that you had to travel the full journey.

That only applies always to Advance Purchase tickets.

Off Peak/Super Off Peak (incl 'Day' and 'Travelcard' types) Return tickets nearly always allow break of journey or starting/ending short on the return journey. The only exception to this that I'm aware of are Anglo-Scottish flows on the East Coast Main Line where the ticket type GVR (Anglo-Scot Off Peak Return) doesn't allow it outward or return.

Most also permit it on the outward or single journey. Although there are more exceptions, such as other flows on the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line), London Midland priced flows between West Midlands<->Euston and many flows priced by Arriva Trains Wales.

Anytime Singles and Returns always allow break of journey or starting/ending short.