Angry commuters start fightback against fines

[whole diary]

[vacman]

 

As I've already said, the easy way to give people an incentive to upgrade at the station is to make it more expensive to do so on the train, but that's not the same as making it a penalty. If you treat people better, i.e. as customers rather than presumed cheats, the railways would have a  better reputation and that would increase the number of people paying to use it.

But thats exactly how the system works now, board with in valid ticket and you buy a Standard Open Single, sort it before getting on the train and you get an Off-Peak single, the newspapers keep quoting "Fines" which is tripe and incorrect, only a court can impose a fine, when the customer is unable to buy a new ticket they are issued an Unpaid Fare Notice for exactly the same amount as the Anytime Single, it's only if they don't pay within the 10 days that letters get sent! The press have nothing better to do but kick the railways as they always do, most people who buy advance tickets get a bargain and go on their journey as planned without hitch, the ones who usually shout loudest are the ones who are caught out playing the system and i reckon about 70% of people who i "Catch" on Advance tickets on the wrong trains are regular travellers who know the score and play the system, and i'm speaking from years of first hand experience not an off the cuff opinion based on what I read in the Daily Mail.

[bobm]

the ones who usually shout loudest are the ones who are caught out playing the system and i reckon about 70% of people who i "Catch" on Advance tickets on the wrong trains are regular travellers who know the score and play the system

As a passenger I can usually tell when a train manager is on to one of these people... the traveller has mysteriously lost the reservation coupon.....

[vacman]

Yes, the ones who manage to not lose the reciept, collections coupon, railcard and everything else but mysteriously the reservation coupon must have been left in the machine even though they have the coupon that prints last.

[bobm]

How they teach you to have the patience of a saint I will never know....

[ellendune]

How would it make things easier? Well, pretty obviously, if you make things easier for the customer to buy the service they want you get fewer complaints and less incentive for evasion. It takes away the confrontation and, crucuially,  the language of confrontation. 

Be honest: which situation would you prefer to deal with?

A:
"Excuse me, I have a ticket for a different train, please can I buy an upgrade so I can go on this one instead?"
"Certainly sir, that will ^x, plus an admin fee of ^y" (The rules having been clearly and repeatedly explained beforehand, and ^y being reasonable)

Or B:
"I'm afraid that ticket isn't valid on this train. So I'm going to have to charge you full fare single ...well it did say on the website and on the posters... rules are rules"... National Conditions of Carriage Part 7, paragraph B etc etc"...

As I have said before - I have seen method B used on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) and everything was very polite and amicable.

I have also seen method A used a few years ago - including the guard/tm snatching the invalid ticket from the passenger whose railcard had expired - and it agravated the previouisly mild mannered passenger so much that the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) was called. 

The excess idea could work, if you miss your booked train they could allow the excess pluss ^10 admin fee (as is allowed if done BEFORE your booked train i.e. travelling too early) but these excess should only be available if done before boarding the train, if you just get on and hope for the best then you should be charged a whole new ticket as you would now, if this were the case then there would be an incentive for people to actually go and sort their ticket out before boarding rather than just getting on and hoping for the best.
But my point still stands about the UFN^‡(resolve) process not working very well, if someone does get on the train with for example a reference number then they should be issued with a UFN (as now) BUT they should have this quashed when they appeal showing proof of purchase etc and maybe allow everyone 2 chances per year, as is the case with people who leave their season tickets at home now!

If there were proper ticket checks and visible staff on trains then it could be on the train see below.

This is an example of what I was referring to earlier- starting off with what makes things easier for the operator and then working out how to get passengers to comply with it. That isn't customer service, it is the industry making things more difficult for passengers as an alternative to providing sufficient staff to do on-board ticket checks properly. 

As I've already said, the easy way to give people an incentive to upgrade at the station is to make it more expensive to do so on the train, but that's not the same as making it a penalty. If you treat people better, i.e. as customers rather than presumed cheats, the railways would have a  better reputation and that would increase the number of people paying to use it.

Whilst we keep going back to the T&C's it is worth pointing out that the T&C's for Advance tickets are actually very simple and take up just one or two paragraphs so it isn't like when you sign a mobile phone contract with pages and pages of drivel, yes there does need to be a little more discretion built into the system and the best way that can be achieved is by having a system where any problems must be sorted out before travelling, the only exception to this would be from unmanned stations (as now) to just allow everyone to get on train and pay what they would at the station just wouldn't work, it takes me from Pad to Westbury to get through a train now, and thats good going, if I had to stop and excess every other ticket then most of the train would go free or on the wrong train, everyone would soon latch on to that idea and do the same, even when you have an assist it is difficult to get the train up tight so it just doesn't work!

How about making the T&C more accesible.  Have a short summary available for AP purchasers. You say the T&C are shown at stations - challenge anyone who does not work for a train company to tell me where I can read them on a station (say at Swindon for example).  To quote Douglas Adams  the might just as well be "on public display in a locked filing cabinet in the basement of the Town Hall"  so far as most passengers are concerned. 

[vacman]

Most stations attach a T&C summary card to the ticket when they sell it, this should be compulsory I think or have it printed on the reverse, it wouldnt be impossible to have different ticket stock for Advance tickets but it could cause some probles in ticket offices, only real way would be to have 2 printers for each star machine one for Advance and one for walk up but the cost could be prohibative no doubt.

[ellendune]

Most stations attach a T&C summary card to the ticket when they sell it, this should be compulsory I think or have it printed on the reverse, it wouldnt be impossible to have different ticket stock for Advance tickets but it could cause some probles in ticket offices, only real way would be to have 2 printers for each star machine one for Advance and one for walk up but the cost could be prohibative no doubt.

A preprinted T&C summary card would seem to be the most practical.  I have never been offered one though.  How about a general T&C summary card for all tickets, or  at least a leaflet by the ticket window with the key points.  Who is going to stop and read a poster full of small print when they are in a hurry?  Though I still challenge somone to tell me where there is such a poster. I have only ever read them when I found them on the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) website by accident.   

[Milky Bar Kid]

There clearly are suggestions that could help make things easier with AP tickets but suggesting that the T&C's be displayed wouldnt work as people struggle to read timetables and CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) and resort to double checking with station staff to reassure themselves hence why I always say if in doubt ASK someone, thats what they are there for.

I know of many staff who work in ticket offices who supply the AP booklet with tickets and also verbally warn passengers 'you must only travel on the train you have just purchased tickets for' I think the problem arises when people buy AP tickets online see a price and think thats cheap, the problem then occurs whe they have purchased without fully looking and reading the infomation that is clearly visable (national rail website quite clearly highlights BOOKED TRAIN ONLY, NO REFUNDS) miss their train only to find out they didnt read the T&C's or that no one had explained it to them thus proving that people are never willing to own up to their mistakes and take responsibility for their actions.

I see that XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) have now scrapped XC ONLY walk up fares and if this arguement continues then TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s will remove said AP tickets, Its also worth noting that i know of people who buy advance tickets and find the system works well and also the saving is considerable more than what it would be if purchasing a season ticket, The way foward as i pointed out earlier in the thread could be to limit AP tickets, groupsave etc due to rising demand with the option of discounted tickets only throught the use of railcards.

[mjones]

There clearly are suggestions that could help make things easier with AP tickets but suggesting that the T&C's be displayed wouldnt work as people struggle to read timetables and CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) and resort to double checking with station staff to reassure themselves hence why I always say if in doubt ASK someone, thats what they are there for.

I know of many staff who work in ticket offices who supply the AP booklet with tickets and also verbally warn passengers 'you must only travel on the train you have just purchased tickets for' I think the problem arises when people buy AP tickets online see a price and think thats cheap, the problem then occurs whe they have purchased without fully looking and reading the infomation that is clearly visable (national rail website quite clearly highlights BOOKED TRAIN ONLY, NO REFUNDS) miss their train only to find out they didnt read the T&C's or that no one had explained it to them thus proving that people are never willing to own up to their mistakes and take responsibility for their actions.

I see that XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) have now scrapped XC ONLY walk up fares and if this arguement continues then TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s will remove said AP tickets, Its also worth noting that i know of people who buy advance tickets and find the system works well and also the saving is considerable more than what it would be if purchasing a season ticket, The way foward as i pointed out earlier in the thread could be to limit AP tickets, groupsave etc due to rising demand with the option of discounted tickets only throught the use of railcards.

No they won't.  They need APs for yield management and to make best use of off peak capacity. It is in the TOC's interest to provide them. The principle of advanced purchased tickets for specific trains is fine and not under dispute. What is being questioned are  the methods by which they are managed, which is clearly generating lots of customer unhappiness and bad publicity for the industry, as well as confrontational situations with passengers that I'm sure the railway staff on here would prefer to avoid. And NB, we aren't just talking about APs in this discussion.

There is a fundamental difference of approach here between seeing it as being about enforcement  as opposed to customer relations.  It isn't just about communicating the Ts and Cs better, though clearly that needs to be done.  A detailed understanding of the National Conditions of Carriage should no more be required reading for travel on a train than the Consumer Protection Act etc is necessary to visit Sainsbury. The detailed rules should only be needed when there is a dispute, and most disputes should be avoided by good communications and procedures that are regarded as fair.  Every penalty notice issued, every full fare single issued to someone with the wrong ticket should be regarded as a failure of the system.

[Btline]

How difficult would it be to modify the tickets so they say on the back

*Booked train only. No refunds.

or

*Not valid on departures before 0930 and between 1630-1830 on weekdays

Instead of a pointless "Plus bus" advert.

[paul7575]

The first (but not only) difficulty would be in modifying tens of thousands of ticket machines, fixed and portable, to print on both sides at once...

Paul

[paul7575]

I see that XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) have now scrapped XC ONLY walk up fares...

I must challenge that.  They have scrapped some XC ONLY walk up fares on Scotland to North East of England flows, apparently because they are now the main operator since the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) timetable change last years.  AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) they cannot have XC ONLY fares on those flows anymore, so this sounds like someone jumping to a wrong conclusion. 

I've just checked and you can still get a ^7.50 XC ONLY Glasgow to Edinburgh single on the next train out...

Paul

[Southern Stag]

How difficult would it be to modify the tickets so they say on the back

*Booked train only. No refunds.

Advance tickets already say Booked Train Only under the section for validity on the front of the ticket.

[Milky Bar Kid]

no one is jumping to the wrong conclusion it is fact!!

[Btline]

Apparently, XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) have also shamelessly axed XC only fares in the South West meaning that locals will have to shell out the full whack.

As well has many others in the North East (not all to Scotland). Not helped by non existent ticket collections on EC, meaning that savvy commuters were getting away with XC only tickets on EC services on short journeys in the Newcastle area. Barriers did not prevent this!

Perhaps the restriction could be printed on the front. The restriction should be printable in a line.