Angry commuters start fightback against fines

[whole diary]

[Milky Bar Kid]

To be fair this argument is not going to go anywhere! If there gonna start bending rules here and there then TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s will just limit advance tickets like XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)), train travel is increasing BUT capacity is not and disposing of AP tickets, groupsave etc would soon free up extra seats! The point about people not being regular travellers etc and not knowing the rules etc is rubbish, when tickets are purchased on line or at ticket office they are given the T&C's why dont they READ them, its as clear as daylight in black and white and if in doubt ASK!!!

Also how can you a passenger be confused about weather to buy a ticket on train or not if they walk straight through the ticket office?

[vacmanfan]

PPPPPP....

The majority of people that miss trains on AP tickets are those that have had their tickets booked for weeks but decide to leave collecting them until 5 mind before the train.  Those genuine people who have genuine reasons for missing their train do in general get treated with discretion. 

It's true that 1: There are some terrible members of staff who only see in black and white and 2: Ticketing can be terribly complicated to a novice but AP allows extremely cheap travel - allowing flexibility with will just make it even more complicated.  Where do you draw the line? "you can use it on the next train" will leave it open to further discretion to be used on thr train after that... And so on.

I do think that the conditions of the ticket need to be made clearer, the seat reservation part needs to look different from the ticket and clearly state the times and trains it is valid on. At present it is not.  The Tocs all need to come up to date and allow tickets to be downloaded straight to a smartphone to stop people standing in a tedious queue printing fifteen coupons from a knackered old TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine).  Granted, this won't stop people missing trains, its a fact of life, but making it clearer and easier for people to understand will help. 

[ChrisB]

Hmmm - mobile phone tickets.....

So who's to blame if the phone runs out of juice then?

Are TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) meant to giive leeway there too?

[Milky Bar Kid]

mobile phone runs out of battery, simple you have to buy a new ticket! its in the nrcoc that you will be treated as travelling without a ticket! see it quite often then they start moaning etc.

[ChrisB]

I agree that rules are rules.

No one raises major complaints if they miss a flight with a non-flexible ticket, so why should train travel be any different.....

[mjones]

Because air travel isn't the same as rail travel, so isn't appropriate as a comparison for setting expectations. No-one is physically able to get on an aeroplane without a ticket for that particular flight, nor expects to; the problem of how the industry deals with those who don't have the right ticket is very different.

But the main point still being missed here is about customer service, an apparently alien concept, and the very poor public image the "rules are rules" approach gives to the railways. The sort of examples being cited, where people get whacked with a massive penalty for being on the wrong train because they got on a late running earlier train, or where people have apparently been given contradictory advice by staff, are very damaging; and the ham-fisted attempts to deal with them in the media by industry representatives don't help at all. The impression given is that rail travel is complicated and severe penalties are imposed for those who make even honest mistakes. For the majority of people who still aren't regular rail travellers that is very off-putting, and they'll carry on driving.

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that there should be no rules, or that they should not be enforced, I am not. I am arguing that rules need to be simpler in many cases, they need to be clearer, and they need to be fairer (e.g. allowing the value of tickets already held to count towards an upgrade). Those who board a train in good faith intending to pay, or already holding a ticket, should not be treated the same as those who intend to evade paying. Treating them the same goes against most people's idea of natural justice and provides no incentive for people to come forward if they've made a mistake.

A simple example of what I mean: I've been on a number of trains leaving Paddington where the guard makes an announcement about ticket restrictions after the train has departed. All that does is gives someone with the wrong ticket an incentive to hide in the loo, as why come forward and ask for an excess fare if you are simply going to be treated as if you have no ticket at all?  So let's have more effort to make sure people know the restrictions before they board, that there are staff present to warn people and check tickets beforehand, and let's give people a chance to upgrade instead of a penalty fare. As I've said before, adding an admin charge to excess fares paid on trains might be reasonable, but the difference is you are treating the situation as an upgrade rather than a penalty; you are treating the passenger as a customer to whom you are selling a higher value product that they'd originally purchased, instead of treating them as a cheat.

[Btline]

I agree that rules are rules.

No one raises major complaints if they miss a flight with a non-flexible ticket, so why should train travel be any different.....

 
I won't bother saying it a third time!

[ChrisB]

mobile phone runs out of battery, simple you have to buy a new ticket! its in the nrcoc that you will be treated as travelling without a ticket! see it quite often then they start moaning etc.

IN which case rules are rules. The NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) rules, and everyone adheres. Problem solved.

On the other hand....

[IndustryInsider]

Very well said 'mjones' in the post above!

[ChrisB]

I believe you can upgrade before you travel - just at the ticket office, not on the train. Ollie?

If that's the case, I'm happy, providing this info is made *very* clear, anywhere one can purchase a ticket.
If you can't ne arsed to queue because *you* want to change something *you* bought (& the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) sold in good faith), then I've little sympathy.

[Southern Stag]

I believe you can upgrade before you travel - just at the ticket office, not on the train. Ollie?

Changes, but not refunds (except in the case of delays to your booked service) are available up to the departure of your first reserved train subject to a payment of a ^10 administration fee and the difference between the ticket held and the cheapest ticket available for the journey, walk-up or advance, no refund will be paid if the new ticket is cheaper though. A ^10 admin fee isn't charged if you want to upgrade to First Class but stay on the original booked service and ticket office staff have been known to waive it in some other cases using their discretion, but I'm not sure if that's policy or not. The Advance ticket FAQ^▸ (Frequently Asked Questions)'s available to staff goes on about maximum flexibility to change Advance tickets before departure of the original service and no flexibility afterwards.

[vacman]

The idea of being lubby dubby and believing every sob story is just unworkable, people will say anything to avoid a fare and to say that people on the wrong trains are treated the same as fare dodgers is just untrue and can only come from someone who is either from another planet and no concept of what really happens on the railway, wrong ticket=new ticket, no ticket/money=day in court and fine up to ^1000. and you all seem to have missed the point that discretion is used a hell of a lot now WHEN people bother to go and sort it out before getting on the train, its only the ones who just get on the train and think that the rules dont apply to them that usually get stung.

[ellendune]

The idea of being lubby dubby and believing every sob story is just unworkable, people will say anything to avoid a fare and to say that people on the wrong trains are treated the same as fare dodgers is just untrue and can only come from someone who is either from another planet and no concept of what really happens on the railway, wrong ticket=new ticket, no ticket/money=day in court and fine up to ^1000. and you all seem to have missed the point that discretion is used a hell of a lot now WHEN people bother to go and sort it out before getting on the train, its only the ones who just get on the train and think that the rules dont apply to them that usually get stung.

As long as that is the attitude, then a customer focussed railway is impossible. The railway is still stuck in a public sector jobsworth mindset.

A customer focussed railway would be seeking to get its customers to buy a higher value product, not prosecuting them. 

I believe you can upgrade before you travel - just at the ticket office, not on the train. Ollie?

Changes, but not refunds (except in the case of delays to your booked service) are available up to the departure of your first reserved train subject to a payment of a ^10 administration fee and the difference between the ticket held and the cheapest ticket available for the journey, walk-up or advance, no refund will be paid if the new ticket is cheaper though. A ^10 admin fee isn't charged if you want to upgrade to First Class but stay on the original booked service and ticket office staff have been known to waive it in some other cases using their discretion, but I'm not sure if that's policy or not. The Advance ticket FAQ^▸ (Frequently Asked Questions)'s available to staff goes on about maximum flexibility to change Advance tickets before departure of the original service and no flexibility afterwards.

The railway could try publicising what to do if you have an AP ticket and miss your train. 

[bobm]

The railway is in a no win position really.  They offer cheaper tickets with conditions or they don't and then get accused of profiteering!

[RichardB]

Generally I agree with the "rules are rules" argument.If you don't want to be tied down to a particular train, don't book an advance ticket.

I do think that if someone has an advance ticket and travels on another train, they should only pay the extra (large as it will be) and not have their original ticket disregarded.

The "the man on the platform said it would be Ok" routine dates back to the earliest days of railways (in my case, the early 80s!). 

By the way, I was not impressed with VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) charging ^78.50 Std Single Euston -Manchester on every train from 16 00 to 19 40 last Wednesday.  In our supposedly "free market" railway, VT are not allowed to be competed against on the direct route (and have in any case filled up the railway).

I went for a drink with some friends and got the 20 00 - ^49 1st, ^32.50 Std, Advance, of course.

On Saturday, I got a ^47.50 Std advance single back to Plymouth on the 18 04 ex Liverpool - a very good deal.  It's worth sticking to the rules, in my book.