Buy a ticket before boarding the train....

[whole diary]

[julian]

I regularly travel between Exmouth and Exeter Central on the 0854 service. I possess a Devon and Cornwall Railcard.
Today, on reaching the station about 5 minutes before the train was due to depart I encountered a queue about 12 deep from the one ticket office that was open. There is normally another member of staff selling tickets by the entrance but his position was closed.
I tried the ticket machine but that rejected my coins.
Faced with missing my train to work I boarded anyway, resolving to buy a ticket from the Conductor.
At this point 2 members of staff got on the train whom I assume are revenue collectors. I approached one of them immediately and asked to buy a ticket, showing my railcard. I was told I was too late and should have bought one before getting on the train.The individual to whom I spoke was not very polite.
I then went to the back of the train and knocked on the door, as I could see the Conductor who was engaged in a conversation with another member of staff.
He opened the door slightly but on hearing my request he said I was too late and should have bought a ticket earlier. I reminded him that I could not have done so because of the queue, and because the ticket machine had rejected my coins.
Eventually he said he would sell me a ticket when he came down the train.
I would have refused to pay any penalty fare that was levied as I had done all that I could to purchase a ticket, short of missing the train completely.
I mention this because of an earlier post about some persons receiving penalty fares. Initially I was sceptical of their excuse but I have a great deal more sympathy now.

[readytostart]

Was the train on the move at this point, the conditions of carriage state that you should purchase a ticket before you travel, not before you get on the train, despite what 'buy before you board' posters may say. Unless you are in a Compulsory Ticket Area I don't see that you've done anything wrong.

[julian]

No, it had not started the journey.

[grahame]

If you arrive at a station in good time to catch your train, and you are unable to purchase a ticket before the train leaves in spite of making all reasonable efforts to do so, I think you are morally in the right to board the train without a ticket, provided that you continue to make all reasonable efforts to purchase a ticket.

But what is "good time" to catch a train?   Legally, I suspect that you're supposed to allow for this sort of thing:



but you were, I suspect, completely within your rights to board the stationary train and look for another alternative means of getting a ticket.

[EBrown]

Faced with missing my train to work I boarded anyway

In summary, you failed to purchase a ticket before you boarded (by passing a payment option) but the train was stationary.

Failure to pay [or appeal] a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) if one was issued (on the day or later) would have been an even more foolish move.


Now, looking at the Penalty Fare Rules, it says quite clearly:

Basic
4.2 (b) Passengers must be given a sufficient opportunity to buy a ticket or permit to travel
before they get on a penalty fares train or enter a compulsory ticket area.

I can see nothing about stationary trains in either the conditions of carriage or the penalty fares rules. I'm happy for someone to provide evidence to the contrary, but if you were on a Penalty Fares Train and you had sufficient chance to pay, you could have been charged a penalty fare.
To add to this, The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 1994 says nothing about penalty fares not being charged on stationary (at the platform) trains.


Byelaws

18.  Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1)  In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel.

Again, I can find nothing to the contradict that this applies on a stationary train. Happy to be proved wrong.


The fact you passed an opportunity to pay means you also could have been prosecuted for a Section 5 RoRA offence, the onus is on the passenger to pay at the earliest opportunity, a queue doesn't change that fact.


The obvious get out clause here is:

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 1994
6.2.d a person acting or purporting to act on behalf of
(i)the operator of the relevant train, or
(ii)the operator of the station in question,indicated that the person in question was, or persons generally were, permitted to travel by or be present on the relevant train or, as the case may be, any preceding train without having a ticket or other authority.

Byelaw 18.3.iii
an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket.

So ask to board and purchase a ticket, before you actually board!

Hopefully Bignosemac will be along shortly to give us a definitive answer!

[John R]

As mentioned above, you are only in the wrong if the train has started to move, which in this case it had not. 

There are also guidelines set out in the rules under which operators must run penalty fares schemes that allowance must be made if ticket purchasing facilities do not exist, or are out of use, or if excessive waiting times are resulting. However, despite some searching I can't find these rules on the dft web site, which is where they used to be.

As an example a couple of days ago the ticket office was closed at Nailsea and one of the two machines was out of service. Thus the queues for the sole remaining machine were very long. Given FGW^▸ (First Great Western) was only providing one third of the normal capacity, they would be on shaky ground if they had tried to impose any penalty fares that morning for pax boarding at NLS.

[EBrown]

There are also guidelines set out in the rules under which operators must run penalty fares schemes that allowance must be made if ticket purchasing facilities do not exist, or are out of use, or if excessive waiting times are resulting. However, despite some searching I can't find these rules on the dft web site, which is where they used to be.

Penalty Fares Rules 2002

Checking that ticket facilities are available and warning signs are displayed

4.33 Under rule 7, a person cannot be charged a penalty fare if there were no ticket facilities
available at the station where they joined the train, or if the warning notices required by rule 4
were not properly displayed. If a passenger says that they could not buy a ticket or that there
were no warning signs, an authorised collector must be able to check that the warning signs
are in place and not covered up or damaged, and whether ticket machines are working
properly or the ticket office is open. Authorised collectors also need to know when long
queues build up at a ticket office so that they can use their discretion towards passengers
travelling from that station. This is usually done by giving each authorised collector a mobile
phone and a pager to keep them in contact with a central control centre. Arrangements must
be made for station staff to contact the control centre if a ticket office closes early or if long
queues build up, and to advise the control centre of any ticket or ^permit to travel^ machines
that are not working. Operators must explain how ^permit to travel^ and ticket machines at
unstaffed stations will be monitored.

[JayMac]

Hopefully Bignosemac will be along shortly to give us a definitive answer!

The two preceeding posts from John R and EBrown sum up pretty much what I would've initially said and linked to.

To add. From FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s Passenger Charter:

Ticket office opening hours will be displayed at each station along with alternative methods to purchase a ticket. When purchasing a ticket from our ticket offices you should not have to queue for more than five minutes during peak periods, and no more than three minutes outside of peak periods. (Peak periods are busier periods of the day when customers are travelling to and from work, e.g. between 0700 and 0900.) Regular checks will be carried out to ensure that these standards are consistently met and any shortfall rectified.

How you successfully argue, should you be challenged by an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)), after deciding not to continue queueing is, however, not clear cut. If the RPI continues with the issue of a Penalty Fare or decides on an interview under caution, you could well be facing weeks of uncertainty and correspondence in an attempt to 'clear your name'.

Sadly, the legislation (Penalty Fares Rules, Regulation of Railways Act 1889 and Railway Byelaws) is, in my opinion, unfairly stacked in Train Operating Companies' favour.

It's difficult to offer good advice that covers all circumstances. Each case of a Penalty Fare, notice of intention to prosecute etc, needs to be addressed on its own merits. Hypothetical situations are of little use.

With the dice loaded in the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) favour all I can offer by way of advice is to gather as much evidence as possible at the time you queued and gave up waiting. Not ideal, and I can't really agree with grahame that you may be morally in the right to give up queueing. The legislation doesn't really allow for someone's moral standpoint.

[Milky Bar Kid]

In reality this is true about waiting times etc BUT boarding the train without a ticket at a station no matter the ques or facilities provided put you in breach of byelaw 18.1 (in any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling unless he has with him a valid ticket entiltling him to travel). Its worth remembering aswell that turning down the penalty fare will result in prosecution for the byelaw offence which are strict liability matters and the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would not have to prove much as the passenger didnt have a ticket.

Also Exmouth has 2 TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) and selling window.

[JayMac]

Indeed. Strict Liability.

It's very strict and you are likely very liable.

And that is despite the wording regarding queueing times in a TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) Passenger Charter.

Arguably, without cast iron evidence of the time you spent queueing, you may well be on shaky ground legally.

A lot of what is written in Passenger Charters is not legally binding.....

[Trowres]

... So the conclusion is that if you don't want to miss the train, you should allow 10/15/xxx minutes for the fallibility of the station operator...which makes a nonsense of efforts to speed up journey times.

The rules may be stacked in favour of the rail companies, but their competiveness is not.

[EBrown]

... So the conclusion is that if you don't want to miss the train, you should allow 10/15/xxx minutes for the fallibility of the station operator...which makes a nonsense of efforts to speed up journey times.

Or, ask a member of staff to board the train; you are, then, clearly covered.

[EBrown]

I took some advice from a wiser man than myself.

While you cannot be PFd as the To station is the same as the From station (until the moment the train moves) [unless CTA^▸ (Compulsory Ticket Area)]. Byelaw 18.1 and Sec 5 RoRA still applies.

[julian]

Well, some interesting replies to my post but unfortunately some of you are not correct. I took the opportunity of researching this subject. Penalty Fares are not enforceable unless a court orders it. Apparently there have been no reported cases of any train company issuing proceedings over a penalty fare-indeed the last thing the train companies want is for their rather dubious policy to be exposed in this way. The following may assist others in this situation:-

1. Obviously make a reasonable attempt to buy a ticket-however you do not have to wait in a long queue and miss your train (Rule  
2. Check that the person demanding a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) is an authorised collector. Apparently they are obliged to carry i/d confirming this.
3. Section 8 (2) of the Penalty Fare Rules 2002 gives you the right to pay only the full single fare for the journey, which means that, for example, any railcard discounts would not be available to you.
4. It is not a good idea to pay the fare and hope to appeal it later. Apparently most train companies use the 'Independant Penalty Fares Appeals Service' which is in fact owned and staffed by a train company! Hardly independant then...
5. If asked you must provide a correct name and address. This is the one and only part of the process where a criminal sanction could be applied for providing incorrect details.
6. When the collector gives you a form check it is correct. If it is not then the train company has no chance of collecting a PF.
7. When a letter demanding payment turns up, write back explaining why you were unable to buy a ticket.
8. Penalty Fares are a CIVIL, not criminal, matter, except where stated above.

Having said all of this, everyone, without exception, should buy a ticket if they reasonably can.

[vacman]

Well, some interesting replies to my post but unfortunately some of you are not correct. I took the opportunity of researching this subject. Penalty Fares are not enforceable unless a court orders it. Apparently there have been no reported cases of any train company issuing proceedings over a penalty fare-indeed the last thing the train companies want is for their rather dubious policy to be exposed in this way.

you are both correct and incorrect, yes the amount of the Penalty fare can only be retrieved through the civil court, HOWEVER, if a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) is not paid within the 21 days given, then the Penalty fare is CANCELLED and then the passenger will be taken to court contrary to railway byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) which ARE enforceable through the court, a Penalty fare is a civil remedy for a byelaw offence, as already pointed out, an inspector does not have to issue a Penalty Fare and can report the person under the above byelaws instead.

And before you say it, yes the PF rules do allow for the PF to be cancelled by the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) at ANY time, so technically the PF can even be refunded if paid and then a prosecution brought under railway byelaws, it is not unheard of for a prosecution to be brought under section 5.3(a) of the regulation of railways act 1889 as there is case law proving that walking past an open ticket office or machine is deemed as intent to avoid payment as the the law states "......without previously paying his fare....".

Also, what is the issue? Exmouth has a ticket office and TWO TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s!

P.S. the case law is Corbyn v Saunders I think it was 1976?