Devon Metro (railway network around Exeter) - merged posts, ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[REVUpminster]

The occasional shuttle was replaced by two train an hour Exmouth-Paignton but not at clockface times because of non stopping St Thomas, Starcross, stuck at Dawlish Warren or St Davids  for 10+ minutes to get an even interval down to Exmouth.

It's why it is still not promoted as Devon Metro service as nothing is.

[southwest]

The occasional shuttle was replaced by two train an hour Exmouth-Paignton but not at clockface times because of non stopping St Thomas, Starcross, stuck at Dawlish Warren or St Davids  for 10+ minutes to get an even interval down to Exmouth.

It's why it is still not promoted as Devon Metro service as nothing is.

Yes, but were talking about would it be better to reintroduce the shuttle!

[REVUpminster]

The occasional shuttle was replaced by two train an hour Exmouth-Paignton but not at clockface times because of non stopping St Thomas, Starcross, stuck at Dawlish Warren or St Davids  for 10+ minutes to get an even interval down to Exmouth.

It's why it is still not promoted as Devon Metro service as nothing is.

Yes, but were talking about would it be better to reintroduce the shuttle!

If your going to have three trains an hour with two to Exmouth and one to Newton Abbot you cannot have them every 20 minutes so something else would have to give. Maybe GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) and XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) would stop there express services which would not go down well in the third and fourth largest towns in Devon.

[grahame]

If your going to have three trains an hour with two to Exmouth and one to Newton Abbot you cannot have them every 20 minutes so something else would have to give. Maybe GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) and XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) would stop there express services which would not go down well in the third and fourth largest towns in Devon.

Not so sure if you set the hourly all-stations off from Paignton 20 minutes after the bigger-stations-only train:



As even in this sort of exercise, it is ruled by single line sections and I have taken the Exeter - Exmouth timings from the current National Rail timetables.  They could (in theory) be shifted / drifted uniformly in the hour to give timings elsewhere on the runs that would fit better with other services, but of course you would get customer backlash at stations with just an hourly service if you shift services by more than a couple of minutes.

However ... talking "single line sections" again, there is another - a pinch point just to the south of Newton Abbott where just a single track to Paignton has been deemed sufficient at some point in the past, and a train heading south from Newton Abbott 5 minutes before a train heads north from there is perilously close to a conflict every 20 minutes and a seed of unreliability.  Add in that a freight train failure at Alnmouth resulting in a Cross Country service being late could (and probably would) knock the whole delicate thing off pattern ... and grumbles from passengers at Exeter St Davids about a reversal that has a three minute delay hidden within it, and you get a confirmation it's not all a bed or roses.

P.S. - The showing of timings in the early hours is not a proposal for 24 hour service, but rather timings from a datum. I am all in favour of the 24x7 railway which is what the passengers want, even if the powers-that-be are now very quiet and looking to backtrack on the idea (later starts on Sunday morning next year? - YUK!).  From midnight to 6 a.m., an hourly service would be perfectly reasonable IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion).

[PhilWakely]

I think this thread needs splitting as it has digressed significantly from a review of the new Barney line trains.

However, keeping the digression going. The new two-trains-an-hour service between Paignton and Exmouth makes it virtually impossible to get direct trains in either direction between Polsloe Bridge and Starcross or Dawlish Warren. It now requires either a 30 minute wait at St Davids or a walk along the seawall from the Warren to Dawlish - unless you wish to spend the whole day at the Warren.

[grahame]

I think this thread needs splitting as it has digressed significantly from a review of the new Barney line trains.

Done - old thread at http://www.passenger.chat/22704

[REVUpminster]

I still think the Paignton Metro service should stop at all stations to Exeter St James Park then reverse via the Morrison's siding. These trains spend more time on the main line and more likely to be delayed so need a decent lay over time to recover.

Exmouth should be served by Barnstaple trains with initially a shuttle to make up the half hour service from St Davids and then hopefully at a later date from Okehampton.

In the longer term a Cullompton- Axminster service to complete the Metro Lines.

Metro interchange passengers should be encouraged to change at Central and those wanting express trains at St David's

[grahame]

[However, keeping the digression going.] The new two-trains-an-hour service between Paignton and Exmouth makes it virtually impossible to get direct trains in either direction between Polsloe Bridge and Starcross or Dawlish Warren. It now requires either a 30 minute wait at St Davids or a walk along the seawall from the Warren to Dawlish - unless you wish to spend the whole day at the Warren.

Thread now split.

If you have 2 trains an hour from A to O via major stations at E and I ... and need to serve B, C, D ... F, G, H, ... J, K, L M and N hourly then to keep the major stations more or less half hourly, you have to share out the intermediate stops - meaning that certain journeys between pairs of those intermediate stations will involve a changes / approx 30 minute wait.  

I would suspect that passenger numbers between consonant stations are relatively small - and that's because that's because the demand for those journeys is not high; people will want to go from their residences at the smaller stations to the cities, seasides, and funfairs served by the bigger vowel ones.

The sample timetable I put above fixed that if we're looking at a 20 minute service for part of the line ... the slow train starting from the end of the line with three trains per hour just 20 minutes after the fast, but then arriving at the far end 30 minutes after.   In the reverse direction, a start 30 minutes apart leads to a 20 / 40 split at the far end which is plugged by the extra train on that part of the line.

[REVUpminster]

What's the point of fast trains on a Metro service.  The fast train from Paignton gets to St Davids quicker but then is held there for anything between 10-12 minutes for a path down to Exmouth. If maybe the train was held at Central where most want to go it might be an improvement.

Also St Thomas, in a good position, is under utilised because it's such an user unfriendly station. If it had lifts and a half hour service it would be better used.

[southwest]

The occasional shuttle was replaced by two train an hour Exmouth-Paignton but not at clockface times because of non stopping St Thomas, Starcross, stuck at Dawlish Warren or St Davids  for 10+ minutes to get an even interval down to Exmouth.

It's why it is still not promoted as Devon Metro service as nothing is.

Yes, but were talking about would it be better to reintroduce the shuttle!

If your going to have three trains an hour with two to Exmouth and one to Newton Abbot you cannot have them every 20 minutes so something else would have to give. Maybe GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) and XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) would stop there express services which would not go down well in the third and fourth largest towns in Devon.

Why would anything have to give? Newton Abbot has 3 platforms, Paignton's Platform 2 could easily see more use, as could Goodrington sidings. Having a shuttle services between Paignton to Newton Abbot would not affect express services so I don't get why that was brought that up?  Newton Abbot is also due to have some extensive work carried out soon, so why couldn't a bay platform be created opposite platform 1, or remove part of the car park and have it at the far end of Platform 3?

[REVUpminster]

Provision at Newton Abbot has been made for a new platform opposite Platform 1 if the new exit ever gets built. They probably regret getting rid of the old platform 4.

Just as they regret at Paignton the removal of the scissors crossover. Paignton, Torquay, and Torre (except for schoolchildren) were never really imagined as commuter stations but that is what they have become since the jobs are in Exeter.

The few local trains that use platform 1; only one goes down the sidings to reverse; the rest shunt back wrong road usually as another train leaves platform 2, then shunt back into platform 2. All departures from Paignton leave from platform 2.

[grahame]

Not sure where / how the question was in there about connections through to Paignton on my suggestion ...

Express trains at :20 and :50 off EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) to Plymouth would make for services at :02, :29 and :50 for Paignton, the last being a 5 minute change into the shuttle. So 27, 21 and 12 minute gaps off EXD.

Arrivals back into EXD at :25 and :55 would likewise give three services per hour, :11, :25 and :46 giving gaps of 14, 21 and 25 minutes.

I would agree (from limited personal use) that the stopping of only 1 train per hour at St Thomas, looking at the area around it, reduces demand.  Not sure if an increase in services wouls result in new rail users or just the abstraction of journeys by people who currently use Central and St Davids.

I note extra infrastructure suggestions.  Sadly, it's very much easier to and cheaper to remove facilities than to re-install them ... and it needs a very heavy business or political case and a deep pocket, not just a regret at previous removal to take them forward.

[Kempis]

Just as they regret at Paignton the removal of the scissors crossover.

That's interesting ? I didn't know there used to be a scissors crossover at Paignton. Where exactly was it, and when was it removed?

[REVUpminster]

Just as they regret at Paignton the removal of the scissors crossover.

That's interesting ? I didn't know there used to be a scissors crossover at Paignton. Where exactly was it, and when was it removed?

Paignton by Robert, on Flickr

Removed 1988 leaving a facing crossover North of the Torbay Road level crossing. There is a picture of it in Branch Line to Kingswear by Middleton Press

[Kempis]

Removed 1988 leaving a facing crossover North of the Torbay Road level crossing. There is a picture of it in Branch Line to Kingswear by Middleton Press

Thank you!