'Outrage over rail fare fine' for Exmouth to Exeter journey

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

You do realise that some disabilitys make it difficult or even impossible to stand in a busy line of people waiting to get a ticket from a window or tvm

Which is why there is that guidance in 'The Manual' one assumes.

It only mentions a couple of examples. There will be other genuine reasons a disabled person may have for not purchasing before boarding. That is why the guidance suggests staff 'should exercise discretion'.

Individual TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) may go further and issue guidance to staff stating that Disabled Persons Railcard holders should be permitted to buy the full range of discounted tickets on board.

For instance, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) in their (Disabled People's Protection Policy - see here)%20Customer%20DL%20V4.pdf" target="_blank">Disabled People's Protection Policy say:

Where disabled customers are unable to purchase a ticket at a station before their journey, they will be able
to buy a ticket without penalty on the train or at their destination.

No examples. Just 'unable'.

[Tim]

I have sympathy for these folk and think that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) need to answer these two questions before I'd come round to BNM's way of thinking:

1, if the rule is buy before you board, why have these customers been lulled into a false sense of security by being able to buy on board before?

2, Isn't it a bit perverse to go after people who are queing up to pay? Suppose, I forgot to tax my car, I'd be a bit miffed if I was arrested whilst attempting to right my wrong by buying a tax disk at the Post Office and if word got out that the authroties acted in such a way, it would act as a preverse incentive not to 'fess up at all.  Equally, the Police could hang around car dealerships arresting people who are bringing dangerouly defective vehicles in to be put right.  It would be within the rules, but not very sensible or fair.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

They walked past the ticket office at Exeter central then up the stairs to the barriers.....

[paul7575]

You do realise that some disabilitys make it difficult or even impossible to stand in a busy line of people waiting to get a ticket from a window or tvm

Of course I do - but what you actually wrote above means that no-one needs to buy a ticket once they have a DRC.  Which is probably not what you meant, in hindsight...

Paul

[inspector_blakey]

On my daily journey, which starts at thatcham, there is a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) but this only accepts cards - according to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) the cash facility has been disabled (at a lot of stations in our region) due to vandalism,

I'm not trying to open up an old argument here but just stating passengers sometimes have every intention of buying a ticket at their start station but aren't able to through no fault of their own.

In that situation the TVM is considered not to be fully functional and outside of ticket office opening hours it would be quite legitimate for a passenger to pay on-board or at their destination without incurring a penalty fare. Whenever the ticket office is open a penalty fare would still be due.

1, if the rule is buy before you board, why have these customers been lulled into a false sense of security by being able to buy on board before?

Am I correct in thinking that the Devon/Cornwall penalty fares scheme is relatively new? The article makes no mention of the last time these people used the train, so it's possible that at that time it was possible to buy on board.

That said, buried somewhere within the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) guidance for penalty fares schemes there is a requirement that they are enforced and not diluted by passengers routinely being allowed to purchase a ticket on-board when they should be charged a penalty fare. However the issue is somewhat complicated in the west because within the penalty fares area there are various stations that don't have full-time ticket offices or TVMs so there are plenty of occasions when passengers could quite legitimately join without a ticket and should be offered the opportunity to pay on the train without penalty.

The hard-of-thinking seem to get terribly confused by this, but in essence the rule itself is very simple: if you're in a penalty fares area (the clue is the massive yellow warning posters explaining the scheme clearly at entrance points to the station) and there is some way in which you can buy your ticket before joining the train, then you must do so. End of story.

They walked past the ticket office at Exeter central then up the stairs to the barriers.....

If that is indeed the case, and the ticket office was open at the time, it wouldn't appear at first glance to be indicative of someone fully intending to pay their fare at the earliest opportunity, would it?

[EBrown]

On my daily journey, which starts at thatcham, there is a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) but this only accepts cards - according to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) the cash facility has been disabled (at a lot of stations in our region) due to vandalism,

Being a semi-regular traveller from Pangbourne to Reading(which has a Permit to Travel machine which is rarely on), I almost never buy a fare and pay in cash at Excess in Reading. I do however, find myself having rather large arguments with staff about buying before you board.

Anyway, in this case, no sympathy at all.

[JayMac]

Being a semi-regular traveller from Pangbourne to Reading(which has a Permit to Travel machine which is rarely on), I almost never buy a fare and pay in cash at Excess in Reading. I do however, find myself having rather large arguments with staff about buying before you board.

Pangbourne does have a booking office and TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) though. If the booking office is open you should buy from there. If the booking office is closed then there is the TVM. If it's working and accepting the method of payment you wish to use then you should buy your ticket from it. If the ticket you want is not sold by the TVM then you should purchase a fare that allows you to complete at least part of your journey then excess it to the correct fare at the earliest opportunity. If the TVM is card only and you wish to pay in cash then, if it's working, you should use the PTT^▸ (Public Time-Table) machine. I would assume it's only switched on when the TVM is non-functional.

Eschewing these options (assuming at least one is available to you) and merely waiting until you get to the excess fares window at Reading leaves you liable to a Penalty Fare should you be stopped by an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) en route, or encounter a block at Reading. Staff are correct in telling you that you should buy before you board. You've been given plenty of opportunities to 'buy before you board' at Pangbourne.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

You do realise that some disabilitys make it difficult or even impossible to stand in a busy line of people waiting to get a ticket from a window or tvm

Of course I do - but what you actually wrote above means that no-one needs to buy a ticket once they have a DRC.  Which is probably not what you meant, in hindsight...

Paul

It's not, sorry i should have been more clear

[noddingdonkey]

isn't the ticket office at Exeter Central upstairs past the barriers?!

[The SprinterMeister]

isn't the ticket office at Exeter Central upstairs past the barriers?!

There is a ticket window on the station staff office at the foot of the stairs leading up from platform 2. The staff had the wherewithall (last time I looked) to sell tickets.

[noddingdonkey]

Not in the last eight years (at least!)

[Chris from Nailsea]

From my original post:

A Littleham social worker has complained after she and her friends were fined for fare dodging on a train between Exmouth and Exeter.

Karen Fereday, of Littleham Road, says the incident happened when she and two friends caught a 6.51pm train on a Saturday night.

From National Rail:

Ticket Office
Monday-Friday 07:50-18:15
Saturday 07:50-18:15
Sunday Closed

So the ticket office at Exeter would have been closed when they walked past it. 

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

argument abandoned in light of new evidence from chris 

... but the 8 years comment is rubbish, i have bought a devon day ranger from that window within the last year!

[noddingdonkey]

Not true! It is open on Sundays from about 9-00 until 16.00

When I worked there I was told it wasn't 'officially' open on Sundays because if it was listed as such and then was closed for any reason there would be penalties! The railway is a crazy industry at times!

[noddingdonkey]

well if you've bought a ticket from the window obviously I'm wrong!

All I can say is in the years I worked there that window wasn't used for selling tickets at all-the only outlet was the ticket office and travel centre by the main queen street entrance. I rather suspect that due to the rather large number of gateline staff employed at central they might decide to man that window rather than stand around doing nothing.

Sorry to be talking 'rubbish'!