'Outrage over rail fare fine' for Exmouth to Exeter journey

[whole diary]

[TonyK]

The sensible answer to the problem is to be found on the newly-reopened Blackpool tramway. A day ticket costs ^4.50 if bought on the tram. Buy it from a travel centre or a Paypoint shop (there are over 50 in the area) and it's ^3.50. They are valid on all buses operated by Blackpool Transport as well as the tram. So the trams hold over 100 people with a lot of on and off along the route, and need only one conductor to keep order. The customer gets a substantial discount for the advance purchase, enough to stop them trying to bilk it.

[Kernow Otter]

Great idea, but there is a risk of significantly discriminating against passengers who board at stations with only a platform, a long closed ticket office, no PTT^▸ (Public Time-Table) machine, and no hope of ever seeing a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine).

We for example only one paypoint machine in walking distance, and that is the wrong side of the level crossing for catching a down train - we have no footbridge anymore either !

[Milky Bar Kid]

The policy as set out in the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) quite clearly states that if you board at a station with ticket selling facilities you will be liable to either the full standard single/return OR a penalty fare. So it has always been cheaper to buy a ticket before boarding. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) enforce this policy.

[BerkshireBugsy]

The policy as set out in the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) quite clearly states that if you board at a station with ticket selling facilities you will be liable to either the full standard single/return OR a penalty fare. So it has always been cheaper to buy a ticket before boarding. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) enforce this policy.

But as I said earlier if a passenger only has means to pay by cash and there is no facility to do so at the station (due to the cash facility being disabled on th tvm) should they be allowed to board the train?

I must in stress I am in total favour of clamping down on fair evasion !

[vacman]

But as I said earlier if a passenger only has means to pay by cash and there is no facility to do so at the station (due to the cash facility being disabled on th tvm) should they be allowed to board the train?

Lets clear a few things up here, Exmouth TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) takes cash AND cards, i know most of the RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s in the west and FGW^▸ (First Great Western) will NOT PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) someone who genuinely couldn't have bought a ticket, in this case the "Customer" could have bought a ticket and didn't therefore the PF was correctly issued.
There are stations on the Exmouth line with no ticket issuing facilities, such as Polsloe Bridge, and tickets would have been sold at the barriers from such stations.
Anyone who knows Exmouth though has missed an obvious point here, if the lady parked her car at Exmouth she would have had a ticket, as when you buy a car park ticket from the parking machine you get 2 tickets, one for the car and one for a day return to Exeter Central (the whole transaction costs ^3.90) so, if I were cynical i would say that she also didn't put a ticket on her car!

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

That is a very very very good point, well, is that the only option from the car park what happens if you go for a few days do you have to use something similar to ringo Or does the machine do other than daily If so presumably this wouldn't include rail ticket... If she put the ticket in the car in error she could appeal penalty although this still may not work as she needed the ticket with her

[vacman]

I hate to be cynical but this is just sour grapes from someone who has probably travelled for years on saturday evenings without paying, the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) scheme has been in for a few years now and the RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s at Exeter are quite active (as active as 4 people who cover a huge area can be!), not to mention the fact that the gatelines at EXC and EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) have authorised collectors there as well!

[WelshBluebird]

The responsibility remains with the passenger to seek the conductor and NOT vice versa.

Really?
So take the south wales valley lines, where a large number of the stops do not have any means of buying a ticket.
Are you really suggesting that a train full of passengers should all approach the guard at the same time in an attempt to buy a ticket?
Or, is it more sensible to do what ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) actually do, and just have the guard walking through the train selling tickets, and also have an excess fares window at Cardiff Central (and staff with ticket machines at Pontypridd and a couple of other barriered stations).
The same can be said for stations across Devon and Cornwall, where a large number of them do not offer ticket buying facilities.

(now, I know the above is not the case for the actual event that happened, but I am simply questioning your logic there).

[grahame]

The responsibility remains with the passenger to seek the conductor and NOT vice versa.

Really?

(now, I know the above is not the case for the actual event that happened, but I am simply questioning your logic there).

I think MrGates' comment applies purely to places where a penalty fare regime is in place ??


On another note .. and again not commenting on the specific case, nor indeed Exmouth, where I don't have personal knowledge.

Situation:

A station with a ticket office on the south side. In a penalty fare area. TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) available in the ticket hall for longer hours than the ticket office is open.  But very late at night, the ticket hall is closed and entrance to the station is via a side gate, and those TVMs are not accessible.

There's a footbridge across the station to the island platform, and beyond to a second entrance from a car park at the north side.  The only facility at the north side is a TVM, which is available 24 hours a day.   There is no obvious signage pointing from the main south side entrance (or from the night use side gate) to the TVM in the north car park, which is hidden behind the structure of the footbridge and at no point is visible as you arrive at / enter the station and go the platform from the south.

As I read it, an irregular traveller who usually gets on the train at this station (Chippenham) late at night after the ticket hall is shut, having entered the station from the main side and being unaware of the ticket machine, can be charged a penalty fare at the Bath Spa gateline, provided that the north side TVM which he/she knew nothing about was in working order, on the basis that (a) it's a penalty fare zone, (b) there was a working TVM and (c) ignorance is no defence. Have I got that right?

Penalty fares really worry me. I have no time at all for deliberate fare dodgers, but I've seen and read just too many exceptions and odd situations where the customer ends up having to explain a situation and justify themselves - guilty until proven innocent, and required to have a degree in rail fare rules to boot. Been there myself (broken TVM, broken on-train machine with the train manager, "sinbin" queue at Paddington for 30 minutes). Roll on a system which actually collects fares easily and consistently on a logical tariff and doesn't scare off the occasional traveller.

[BerkshireBugsy]

Or how about my example (this is actually hat happened in the lat 24 hour)

I have a season ticket holder full of previous weekly tickets from home to irk (showing I have a history of paying)

I drove to my local railway station (thatcham) to renew my weekly ticket yesterday pm but was greeted by the words "out of service" on the only tvm at the station. The ticket office was not open.

I arrived at the station early today (Monday) in order to renew my weekly ticket - tvm still out of service. Ticket office not open before my train is due to depart.

There is no permit to travel machine at his station - should I be allowed to board the train?

I must add this is actually an academic question today as my normal train is cancelled which s not normally a good sign

[paul7575]

Yes.  The situation where there are no ticket facilities is clearly covered by the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) conditions of carriage.  You can buy the full range of tickets on the train.

Paul

[BerkshireBugsy]

Yes.  The situation where there are no ticket facilities is clearly covered by the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) conditions of carriage.  You can buy the full range of tickets on the train.

Paul

On this occasion the on board crew were xtremely helpful. Realising that there was a serious number of people needing to buy tickets they set up a production line (there where two FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff dealing with ticket requests) and it worked well.

Well done to them for using their initiative !

[Milky Bar Kid]

Few points, TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) failures and BO closures are paged out etc to relevant staff members with concern to these issues and therefore ticket sales on board are okay and you will not encounter problems. My point about the responsibility remains with the passenger to seek the conductor out which is correct, yes, in theory we know that this doesnt happen but as i have pointed out previously the railway operates a "pay as you go" system and NOT a "use now pay later" system.

I would use the example of "you wouldnt visit mcdonalds and expect them to seek you out". The LOGIC would be that anyone boarding a train at a penalty fares WITHOUT a ticket should be EITHER sold a standard single/return ticket with no discounts etc OR a penalty fare issued. The excuse of "the guard was to busy" and waiting for them to find the passenger is poor, and as i also pointed out can be and has been proved as "intent" to avoid the fare as the passenger was only willing to pay when challenged. So yes it does remain the passengers responsibility at all times to seek and buy a ticket on board.

Technically avantix machines at gatelines are only intended for selling tickets to people who have genuinely NOT had an opportunity to purchase a ticket.

[Milky Bar Kid]

Where a penalty fares system is in place all stations within the scheme have to display the penalty fare warning posters which are more often than not situated at entrance and exit and on platforms. Stations such as EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) even have penalty fare warnings through the PA^▸ (Public Address) system. When a person is challenged about ticketless travel questions are asked before the issue of the notice to ascertain the reason for not holding a ticket. Im sorry to say that even if the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) is on an opposite platform eg Totnes then a penalty fare can still be issued as the station has ticket selling facilities. Im affraid ignorance is no defence.

Also worth pointing out that penalty fares are intended to encourage people to buy before boarding and not a money making scheme, if everyone played the game as they should then there would not be a need for a penalty fare scheme in the 1st place.

[vacman]

There have been quite a few "what if" questions on here but lets put it into perspective, in the scenario that started this thred the ticket machine was in working order, PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) signs were displayed the passenger didn't seek out the guard, therefore the ultimate answer is that this person should have been issued a PF! The PF rules, railway byelaws and NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) all cover instances where TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s aren't working, booking office closures etc etc.