Rules on suspended reservations?

[whole diary]

[Lee]

Passenger boards the train, then takes up an (apparently) unreserved seat. A platform assistant then boards the train with other passengers in tow, and asks the original passenger to vacate their seat, as it has been reserved.

Original passenger points out that there appear to be no reservations on this service, but platform assistant insists that they move anyway.

Who is officially in the right, original passenger or platform assistant?

[LiskeardRich]

Platform assistant, as byelaws state that you must follow instructions of any employee of the railway,
morally the passenger already sat in the seat though.

[matt473]

I assume if a platform assistant requests this then the person may have been escorted due to being infirm so I can't see much of a problem as it is courtesy to offer your seat to someone that may struggle to stand. This has happened to me before more as a result of occupant of original seat refusing to vacate so at least I did the decent thing. However thsis may not be the case but it is a possibility

[Lee]

Passenger was able bodied with no sign of being infirm.

[Phil]

Happened to me once. In First Class, as well. I shrugged and moved to another seat. Then as soon as the attendant was gone, I moved back to the window seat again. Nobody ever claimed it.

[inspector_blakey]

In fact the platform staff member was wrong. If no reservation labels are provided on a train then it's officially deemed that the reservations have not been provided. You're perfectly within your rights to occupy any vacant seat and ask anyone who waves a reservation coupon at you to go forth and multiply as politely as you see fit.

Platform assistant, as byelaws state that you must follow instructions of any employee of the railway,

Not strictly correct. There are various references in the byelaws to obeying the "reasonable instructions" of an "authorized person" but there is no catch-all byelaw that says "you must obey all instructions from rail staff". The closest is 12(2), but that refers very specifically to safety issues which this clearly isn't:

12. Safety instructions
(2) An authorised person may, in an emergency or in other circumstances in which he believes he should act in the interests of safety, issue instructions to any person on the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such instructions.

Even in this case you can still argue "good cause" for disobeying the instructions if the authorized person is talking ballcocks.


The byelaw dealing with reservations is here, with my emphasis in bold:

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

No notice indicating the reservation, no reservation. It's that simple.

[FarWestJohn]

Twice on Cross Country  I have got on an up train at  Truro with the seat reservation system not working. Then only to find a bit later on it is working and I am sitting in a reserved seat for someone due to get on before my destination.
I find this really annoying as by then it is not always easy to find an empty seat and the person getting on can quite legitimately ask you to move.

[the void]

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

No notice indicating the reservation, no reservation. It's that simple.

Surely by that reasoning, anyone could just whip out the reservation card and sit wherever they like...

[Brucey]

...

[inspector_blakey]

Surely by that reasoning, anyone could just whip out the reservation card and sit wherever they like...

Except that this is an offence under the byelaws punishable by a fine. Not that this stops people doing it, of course

[Bob_Blakey]

'...where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder...'

which as far as I am concerned can just as well be the seat reservation ticket in my possession - the byelaw says nothing about the notice having to be 'attached' to the seat.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

Some electronic systems (bearing in mind that over a long journey some seats can be reserved more than once)only show one of the reservations.... Very irritating when you get a no show and think your safe then after a few hours get turfed out!!

[inspector_blakey]

'...where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder...'

which as far as I am concerned can just as well be the seat reservation ticket in my possession - the byelaw says nothing about the notice having to be 'attached' to the seat.

You'll note that the byelaw distinguishes between the "notice" and being the holder of "a valid ticket entitling [you] to be in that particular place". The notice is the tag in the seat indicating the reservation, the ticket is your reservation voucher. Both are required. So your reservation voucher might entitle you to turf someone out of an unreserved seat "as far as you are concerned", but you're wrong, and if you ever try it out on me you'll get short shrift

[JayMac]

Indeed. If you interpret the byelaw to say that the 'notice' could be the ticket in your hand then what about the poor sap who's sat in 'your' seat blissfully unaware of any such 'notice'?

It's the railway that is nearly always at fault here, and any ire should be directed at them, not the person who has sat in what they believe to be an unreserved seat.

Yes, I'll concede that a very small minority of passengers will remove a reservation ticket that isn't theirs, but I'd grass them up if I saw them do so and then a debate/argument ensued between them and the reservation holder. If a reservation notice/display is there and they still won't budge then it's time to involve the Train Manager/Conductor. Although I've never witnessed it I have heard tale of folks being bumped up to 1st Class when a stubborn passenger has refused to give up a seat reserved for someone else.

[Bob_Blakey]

The notice is the tag in the seat indicating the reservation, the ticket is your reservation voucher. Both are required. So your reservation voucher might entitle you to turf someone out of an unreserved seat "as far as you are concerned", but you're wrong, and if you ever try it out on me you'll get short shrift

You will not be greatly surprised to learn that I believe your interpretation of the byelaw is incorrect; if I am in possession of both valid travel ticket & seat reservation voucher I expect to be able to occupy the specified seat unless reservations have been officially suspended and a PA^▸ (Public Address) announcement made to that effect. Any passenger occupying the seat for which I hold a reservation will be politely asked to move.

In very many years of rail travel this approach has only failed me once and the mere threat of Train Manager involvement resolved the situation very rapidly.