Ivybridge: Rail Users Group, services and cancellations (merged topics)

[whole diary]

[vacman]

I think that some of the Cornish HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s should be sped up a bit, and some should be very limited stop in Cornwall, the 1000 from Pnz should be Pnz, SER, TRU, SAU, PAR (for the connection from NQY^▸ (Newquay (Station))) BOD, LSK, PLY^» (Plymouth - next trains), RDG^‡(resolve) and PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains), this train is often full from Truro anyway!

[Conner]

The 10:00 from Penzance is a very busy train for day passengers as well though. You can't put all them on a single 150.
A lot of people get off at Truro on most up services.

[vacman]

The 10:00 from Penzance is a very busy train for day passengers as well though. You can't put all them on a single 150.
A lot of people get off at Truro on most up services.

There should be another stopper after it at 1020 (like it used to be) then an 1055, which is currently an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) which only runs in the summer at the moment, but could be a DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) in winter and an HST in summer. currently the 1036 unit makes a London connection at Plymouth but if the 1055 ran all year then this service could be used by daytrippers as it wouldn't be full of people going long distance.

[John R]

???I think there appears to be some selfishness from some members. Don't begrudge the fact that some HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s will be stopping at Ivybridge because if they don't we will most likely lose services. It only adds on 2 or 3 minutes to a journey to London, in the scheme of things that's nothing. The argument should be for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to provide more services.

Definatly, Ivybridge should have HST's to London, but they should also have more regular DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)'s which are currently very irregular.

I beg to differ. To say that a town with a population of 12,000  over 150 miles from London "should" have a service to London is to confuse the issue. What Ivybridge needs is a decent service to Plymouth and Exeter. If that's achieved by stopping a few services to and from London for operational convenience or economy then so be it, although I think some of the other comments show the downsides of having express services to London calling at smaller stations. But I don't think you could ever run a railway on the basis of towns that size needing a service to London.       

So according to you John, stopping trains at St.Erth is out of the question.
That has a poulation of 1384 and that is in the parish.
As are Hayle, Redruth, Par, Lostwithiel, Bodmin and Liskeard.
I can tell you that Redruth, Bodmin and Liskeard have some of the highest loadings in cornwall on Lodon trains and they have populations of 12,000 or less.
And they are further away from London than Ivybridge.

Not at all. It's a question of pragmatism and geography. The cornish services are clearly acting as local services by the time they get deep into the county. But "should" implied right. I don't think Nailsea, Yatton, Worle "should" have a direct train service to London given their size and location. It's great that they do, but it's more geography and operational convenience that has given us the service we have, and for which I am extremely grateful. Likewise Ivybridge needs a good service, but it doesn't have to be a London service.

Out of interest, how do you know that the passengers using the services from those stations are travelling to London, and are not local passengers? Or maybe they are local passengers on services which just happen to start/finish at London, who would be just as well served by a local service of appropriate capacity? 

[Lee]

The Ivybridge Rail Users Group AGM^▸ (Annual General Meeting) will be held on the 22 May 2008, at Ivybridge Town Hall, 7.30pm start.

[swlines]

The case with Ivybridge is a difficult one - surprisingly similar to Melksham in many respects.

Ivybridge is ideally deserving of units calling only - certainly not HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) as it puts up to 5 minutes into a trains schedule, not good in this world of speeding up services.

Melksham is a similar case as it's difficult to get trains through Melksham as they come off the core services by doing that - Ivybridge is exactly the same. There may be a better case for an enhanced service to Ivybridge if there were more stations between Newton Abbot and Plymouth - giving there a potential for an hourly or two hourly unit stopping service.

I personally feel the ideal way of providing Cornwall with an ample service would be a two hourly Exeter St Davids to Penzance shuttle service, Newquay - Gunnislake services and each other branch line having its own shuttle for itself. This is then of course interspersed with the HSTs that run - however the stopping unit service would allow these services to be sped up en route.

[grahame]

I agree with mjthomson. The argument should be for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to provide more services overall for Ivybridge, in whatever provision mix works out best.

Here, Here! But not just Ivybridge. I'm delighted to read about Newquay prospects too.  Three more things to throw into the mix ...

a) Is there a "Park and Ride" market from South Devon to Reading and London / is that likely to be well (and lucratively) developed by the calling of 125s West of Newton Abbot?

b) It has always struck me that where you have a single station through which fast trains pass, with a local service that sometimes runs within a few minutes of it, you have a potential waste of resources, and an opportunity to develop an extra bustling railhead by providing a good slew of longer distance trains.  In my (untutored) mind, this is not unique to Ivybridge - there are one or two other cases.

c) How do the finances work our for extra Newquay services?  Swlines has done a Melksham comparison (which I will look at further in a moment) and indeed Melksham and Newquay have similar winter populations.  Will FGW make a profit, are they being subsidised, or doing it out of the goodness of their hearts?

The case with Ivybridge is a difficult one - surprisingly similar to Melksham in many respects.

There are indeed some surprising similarities - but some differences too.

With Ivybridge, you have other trains providing a good service connecting stations to the West and East - Plymouth to Totnes, to Newton Abbot.  However, Melksham should read VIA Melksham - services between stations either side, which are much larger towns that Melksham - are diabolical.  You can travel from Chippenham to Salisbury at 06:30 and 19:00 ... only ... and there is no direct train back at all. You can travel from Trowbridge to Swindon at 07:08 and 19:41 ... only ... with return trains at 06:15 and 18:45 only. And, please note, I have just mentioned the five largest population centres in Wiltshire!.  On various evidence and projections, only a quarter of the traffic on a TransWilts service via Melksham would actually board or leave at that station; putting that another way, Melksham has a population of around 24000 ... but the train service putting the Wilsthire area together should be specified for a population of 96000.

Actually, the Newquay comparison has some surprising similarities too, But once again the difference there is that Newquay is the only major population centre on the line, whereas Melksham is via Melksham.  It gives me huge hope to see a decent timetable for Newquay if the reports are correct, to include peak hour service too (?).  It gives me huge hope because if Andrew Haines, Julian Crow and others can do this for Newquay then surely Andrew Haines, Andrew Griffiths, Malcolm Drury and others can do it for the TransWilts!

To avoid this running off topic, I have crossposted ...

http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7466.0

where TransWilts follow ups may folllow 

[Conner]

???I think there appears to be some selfishness from some members. Don't begrudge the fact that some HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s will be stopping at Ivybridge because if they don't we will most likely lose services. It only adds on 2 or 3 minutes to a journey to London, in the scheme of things that's nothing. The argument should be for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to provide more services.

Definatly, Ivybridge should have HST's to London, but they should also have more regular DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)'s which are currently very irregular.

I beg to differ. To say that a town with a population of 12,000  over 150 miles from London "should" have a service to London is to confuse the issue. What Ivybridge needs is a decent service to Plymouth and Exeter. If that's achieved by stopping a few services to and from London for operational convenience or economy then so be it, although I think some of the other comments show the downsides of having express services to London calling at smaller stations. But I don't think you could ever run a railway on the basis of towns that size needing a service to London.       

So according to you John, stopping trains at St.Erth is out of the question.
That has a poulation of 1384 and that is in the parish.
As are Hayle, Redruth, Par, Lostwithiel, Bodmin and Liskeard.
I can tell you that Redruth, Bodmin and Liskeard have some of the highest loadings in cornwall on Lodon trains and they have populations of 12,000 or less.
And they are further away from London than Ivybridge.

Not at all. It's a question of pragmatism and geography. The cornish services are clearly acting as local services by the time they get deep into the county. But "should" implied right. I don't think Nailsea, Yatton, Worle "should" have a direct train service to London given their size and location. It's great that they do, but it's more geography and operational convenience that has given us the service we have, and for which I am extremely grateful. Likewise Ivybridge needs a good service, but it doesn't have to be a London service.

Out of interest, how do you know that the passengers using the services from those stations are travelling to London, and are not local passengers? Or maybe they are local passengers on services which just happen to start/finish at London, who would be just as well served by a local service of appropriate capacity? 

You can look at the reservations.
St.Erth, Redruth, Bodmin Parkway and Liskeard have lots of reservations to and from London, they are probably some of the biggest boarding places for London.

[devon_metro]

Btline, SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) is far more reliable than you actually make out!

This is a welcome move, as the Ivybridge trains are either too full (ex Bristol) or too empty (ex Newton Abbot) so on the services quoted there should be adequate capacity, apart from the 1001 PNZ-PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) which is in 1 word.

a RIOT!

[swlines]

That's two words. 

[devon_metro]

Technically 'a' is a letter 

[Jim]

SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) is a pain in the arse, as you gotta return to the panel you started at to lock back up!

[Btline]

Sorry, the sooner SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) is banned the better (and I mean trains just stopping minus H&S^▸ (Health and Safety))!

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Great to hear about Newquay!

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There should be roughly 2 tph in Cornwall. 1 an express either FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to London or XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) to the North (alternating),  1 a local, which stops everywhere.

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Similar situation in Devon. 2 tph as expresses, then perhaps 1 as a local.

[Conner]

Cornwall doesn't need 2 tph. 2tph 06:00-10:00 and 16:00-20:00 leaving Penzance and Plymouth. 1tph the other times. HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s mainly with DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)'s filling in the gaps.

[Chris from Nailsea]

SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) is a pain in the arse, as you gotta return to the panel you started at to lock back up!

Sorry to query it, Jim, but is that actually right?

They don't have to use the same panel if they use 'SDO Hold' I *think*

I pretty sure they don't but I don't think they are meant to.
They do it in Cornwall alot with unstaffed stations. They check all the doors and lock further up but as far as I can work out they have to turn the key to Train Doors and then lock which seems to breifly unlock doors locked by SDO. They can definatly take the key out though.

Irrespective of that, though, I do agree - SDO is a right pain in the @rse!