Potential bidders for the next Greater Western franchise

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

Of the four, I'd probably go with National Express. Initially I thought no, coloured by their NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast) fiasco. But much has changed in the NX rail division since then.

They certainly have a skilled person leading their bid team in Elaine Holt.

[inspector_blakey]

Unfortunately her tenure at EC might best be described as controversial.

[broadgage]

when it is found (like 'Operation Princess') that lots of little Bullet EDMU Railbuses swarming around and queuing at the pinch points doesn't give a better railway overall. If Crossrail does come indeed down to Reading then thats all the extra capacity there swallowed up before they have even finished knocking it about...

This is my concern, that no matter who wins the franchise, that we will be stuck with a lot of new, shorter trains. Routes that most would consider to be main lines would be downgraded to short DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)* with high density bus seating and no catering.
Such matters as seating layout, we are told have not been decided yet. This is no doubt true, but does anyone really expect a new DMU* to have a proper intercity internal fit out ? I certainly dont, and as for catering, forget it ! Suburban DMUs* dont have catering.

The new multiple units could no doubt be run in multiple to give longer trains, but previous experiences suggest that most will run as single units, especialy as the claimed or expected reliability/availability is most unlikely to be achieved.

*With provision to also use electric power, a grand idea in theory but adds cost, complexity and things to go wrong

[The SprinterMeister]

Of the four, I'd probably go with National Express. Initially I thought no, coloured by their NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast) fiasco. But much has changed in the NX rail division since then.

They certainly have a skilled person leading their bid team in Elaine Holt.

New names and reinventing your self in a blaze of glitz proves nothing to me. And we had NEx running Wessex Trains previously. They didn't know what a C5P DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) body overhaul was then either. Just vynil everything it will be fine. Won't it?

First Group for me please.

[eightf48544]

BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) for me! Or Intercity NSE^▸ (Network South East) and Regional if you want.

[JayMac]

This is my concern, that no matter who wins the franchise, that we will be stuck with a lot of new, shorter trains. Routes that most would consider to be main lines would be downgraded to short DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)* with high density bus seating and no catering.
Such matters as seating layout, we are told have not been decided yet. This is no doubt true, but does anyone really expect a new DMU* to have a proper intercity internal fit out ? I certainly dont, and as for catering, forget it ! Suburban DMUs* dont have catering.

The new multiple units could no doubt be run in multiple to give longer trains, but previous experiences suggest that most will run as single units, especialy as the claimed or expected reliability/availability is most unlikely to be achieved.

*With provision to also use electric power, a grand idea in theory but adds cost, complexity and things to go wrong

I think it's a little early to be complaining about how the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) (note: this stands for Intercity Express Programme) fleet will shake down. No final build plans, let alone internal layout, has been settled on. Nor has an order been placed.

One thing I can be certain of, whatever the new Intercity fleet's internal layout, it won't have high density bus seating. 

New names and reinventing your self in a blaze of glitz proves nothing to me.

I don't remember a 'blaze of glitz'. Just quietly undoing the mess left by Bowker, balancing the books and looking to the future.

They didn't know what a C5P DMU body overhaul was then either.

Wos one of them then? 

[anthony215]

when it is found (like 'Operation Princess') that lots of little Bullet EDMU Railbuses swarming around and queuing at the pinch points doesn't give a better railway overall. If Crossrail does come indeed down to Reading then thats all the extra capacity there swallowed up before they have even finished knocking it about...

This is my concern, that no matter who wins the franchise, that we will be stuck with a lot of new, shorter trains. Routes that most would consider to be main lines would be downgraded to short DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)* with high density bus seating and no catering.
Such matters as seating layout, we are told have not been decided yet. This is no doubt true, but does anyone really expect a new DMU* to have a proper intercity internal fit out ? I certainly dont, and as for catering, forget it ! Suburban DMUs* dont have catering.

The new multiple units could no doubt be run in multiple to give longer trains, but previous experiences suggest that most will run as single units, especialy as the claimed or expected reliability/availability is most unlikely to be achieved.

*With provision to also use electric power, a grand idea in theory but adds cost, complexity and things to go wrong

I wouldnt worry too much about IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) as the orders hasn't been placed and a number of people in the industry are still campaigning to get it scrapped particulary do to the cost's of these new Intercity trains where Alstom have offered a much cheaper alternative.

As a frequent user of ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) I certainly hope they don't get the GW^▸ (Great Western) franchise in fact I would much rather National express got it than Arriva. I fact I will be glad when the Wales franchise comes up for renewal.

[paul7575]

Personally I would like DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) to wander over to Northern Ireland and see how the public transport is organised and operated and see if that model of operation could cope with the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) mainland transport system, seems to work like a charm whenever I go over there and use it. None of this cost cutting to win franchises ver there, just a transport system which works extremely well...

The whole island of Ireland has a derogation from the EU^» (European Union - about) directive though, IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) because of the small scale nature of their operations. It can't be used as a precedent.

Paul

[Rhydgaled]

I wouldnt worry too much about IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) as the orders hasn't been placed and a number of people in the industry are still campaigning to get it scrapped particulary do to the cost's of these new Intercity trains where Alstom have offered a much cheaper alternative.

I AM worrying about IEP, alot. My opinion is scrapping IEP would now be politically unacceptable, due to all the publicity the government has been spouting about the assembly plant in the north-east. Unless Alstom offer to put a similar plant in the same area, that's that. I hope these people in the industry of whom you speak will therefore switch to just campaign for Hitachi's IEP to be built just as a plain EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit), no bi-mode, no axillerary generators, and restricted to a few lines that are relativly cheap to clear for the longer coaches. I think taid industry campaigners would have more chance of success with their campaign then, but DaFT^» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about) will still take some pursuading sadly.

[The SprinterMeister]

Personally I would like DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) to wander over to Northern Ireland and see how the public transport is organised and operated and see if that model of operation could cope with the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) mainland transport system, seems to work like a charm whenever I go over there and use it. None of this cost cutting to win franchises ver there, just a transport system which works extremely well...

The whole island of Ireland has a derogation from the EU^» (European Union - about) directive though, IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) because of the small scale nature of their operations. It can't be used as a precedent.

Paul

So therefore Europe should perhaps look at Ireland and see if it might be worth granting derogations on the basis that Ireland seems to be quietly getting on with it rather than wasting taxpayers money on pointless refranchising programs etc. NIR and Iarnrod Eireann can get on with planning their investment and operations for the longer term as they kno they are going to be there in the longer term rather than kicked off after an arbitary period.

I don't think anyone can claim the current set up is entirely satisfactory and certainly costs more to operate than BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) did although direct comparison isn't actually possible.

[The SprinterMeister]

They didn't know what a C5P DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) body overhaul was then either.

Wos one of them then? 

If you don't know what a coded unit periodic major body repair + strip and repaint is you'll easily get a job on NEx fleet I would have thought.
 

[paul7575]

I wouldnt worry too much about IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) as the orders hasn't been placed and a number of people in the industry are still campaigning to get it scrapped particulary do to the cost's of these new Intercity trains where Alstom have offered a much cheaper alternative.

Alstom arern't a preferred bidder though, are they.  So they can talk about anything they like, but for them to actually offer a solution there would have to be a new competition - in which case who's to say Siemens won't have a better product?

You seem to giving far too much weight to the ususal internet rumour mill - and if you think the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) are listening to it, then I think you are going to be disappointed.

Paul

[paul7575]

Such matters as seating layout, we are told have not been decided yet. This is no doubt true, but does anyone really expect a new DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)* to have a proper intercity internal fit out ? I certainly dont, and as for catering, forget it ! Suburban DMUs* dont have catering.

Well, you certainly seem to have already decided  that the seating layout won't meet the requirements of the train technical specification, because you keep repeating this point.  But with no evidence whatsoever, to be honest, other than personal opinion.

The problem with insisting on an 'intercity' spec is that much of the eastern end of the route, such as Oxford, Reading and Newbury to Paddington services actually require a high capacity London commuter type service - because that's what the east end of the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) has turned into over the last 30 years.  Effectively, Reading is an outer suburban station, in the same way as a places like Guildford is.

Paul

[The SprinterMeister]

The problem with insisting on an 'intercity' spec is that much of the eastern end of the route, such as Oxford, Reading and Newbury to Paddington services actually require a high capacity London commuter type service - because that's what the east end of the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) has turned into over the last 30 years.  Effectively, Reading is an outer suburban station, in the same way as a places like Guildford is.

Paul

Which is why FGW^▸ (First Great Western) removed all those grotty old IC70 seats and replaced then with Grammers in a higher density seating layout. In order to provide more commuters with seats. Which would most people prefer to do? Sit in a Grammer seat or stand in the isle next to an IC70?

So maybe the answer is to seperate the two flows and run the longer distance trains rightaway through Reading and Newbury? The answer to that is probably no as passengers from the West of England tend to get on and off at Reading for the Heathrow Coach, XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services etc..

The Japanese Bullet Dromedary will in all probablility look like a long wheelbase Voyageur with a coathanger on the roof of one coach. Both internally and externally. Think of a 22x and a class 395 getting overly familiar in a siding round the back of the depot and you'll get the general idea.

[grahame]

Which would most people prefer to do? Sit in a Grammer seat or stand in the isle next to an IC70?

Hang on - that's playing with statistics and then blurring the results to phrase an emotive question.  Clever! 


Let's say a carriage can take 70 in comfort, 80 in a squeeze
Let's take a 100 minutes ride from Paddington to Bristol ... it might load as follows:

25 minutes with 90 passengers
10 minutes with 75 passengers
15 minutes with 60 passengers
15 minutes with 52 passengers
15 minutes with 45 passengers
20 minutes with 60 passengers

Total passenger minutes = 6555
Standing minutes (80 seats) = 250
Standing minutes (70 seats) = 550

So for a saving 300 standing minutes, you are committing people to 6005 minutes in squeezed seats rather than conformatble ones.

The question, then, is:
"do you prefer
a) to stand for 9% of the time and be really comfortable when sat down
b) to stand for 4% of the time but be squeezed in when sat down"

These figures are, I believe, realistic for a train at a very busy time.  At quiet times you'll be standing 0% of the time, and the choice is between comfortable/seated and squeezed/seated.