Malfunctioning rail ticket machine cost me ^162.50

[whole diary]

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the Guardian:

East Coast Trains fined me despite prepaying for a ticket from King's Cross to Dundee

In early December I bought a ticket to travel from King's Cross to Dundee on East Coast Trains and opted to collect my tickets from the ticket machines at the station. However, upon arrival at the station the machine was malfunctioning and so I could not retrieve my pre-paid ticket.

As my train was about to depart, I asked a member of the East Coast platform staff what I should do, and was advised to board my train. But the guard on board gave me an unpaid fares notice of ^162.50. On arriving at Dundee station I immediately went to the ticket office where I was issued with my prepaid ticket valid for the journey I had made. I subsequently appealed on the grounds that a) I had bought a ticket, b) I tried several times to retrieve it and could not, and c) I was advised by their staff to get on the train and would not have done so otherwise.

The letter I received from East Coast customer services was apologetic, and admitted having let me down both in terms of the malfunctioning machines and the advice given to me by their staff, but the fine was not revoked. I have since written to its Revenue Protection Support Services, which claims that due to strict liability they cannot revoke my fine. I feel the fine is incredibly unfair, but they threaten "further action or charges". KC, London

Can you imagine a customer being treated like this in any other area of business? Only a UK^▸ (United Kingdom) rail company could behave like this and hide behind the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, that they argue allows them to issue fines to customers who have bought tickets. We get lots of letters about this each year, and it leaves those on the receiving end of this treatment angry and frustrated. A few weeks ago we were contacted by another reader who had suffered a similar experience to yours wanting to know how he could set up a campaign group to get the rules changed, and end this nonsense.

We contacted East Coast ^ the company from which we receive the largest number of complaints like yours ^ and at least, in this case, it had a change of heart. "Having considered all of the factors that contributed to this situation, including the evidence of the tickets which KC later provided, we decided to waive the unpaid fares notice," says a spokesman. He added: "It remains the customers' responsibility to hold a valid ticket for their journey, which is stated as part of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the Railway Bylaws."

[broadgage]

I once had a similar experience, my pre-paid ticket not being available for collection, and a "fine" therefore being payable on board the train.
I lost a lot of money as a result, and  therefore now avoid use of this facility.

Although in the case refered to above, the customer eventually got their money back, such cases do not improve the image of the railway industry.
There is a general belief that railway ticketing is not only needlesly complex, but verging on a fiddle.

I hear of more and more cases of people being told to pay large "fines" for events that they consider to be the fault of the railway, not any wrong doing on the customers part.

I recently saw a family who vowed never to use the train again.
They had tickets valid only on a certain train, and were well aware of this restriction. They boarded what appeared to be the correct service, at the correct time and from the usuall platform. On board they were told that in fact they had boarded the preceeding service which was running late. They had to pay a fine of hundreds of pounds, for a party of four. No other business would get away with this sort of thing.

[matt473]

I'm glad that on fgw services there does seem to be a willingness by conductors to allow travel with proof of ticket purchase numerous times if ticket machines are not working such as an e-mail showing booking etc. Maybe more people should be encouraged to have proof of purchase with them which is easy enough with the number of msartphones people have now so showing confirmation is easy enough to to prove payment for the journey then collect tickets en-route or at the destination. Common sense being applied which in this case was not. If the passanger had a ticket to collect then why not let revenue protection at the destination deal with it as without a ticket to collect if they had been lying they would be charged a fine anyway.

[JayMac]

The problem rail staff face is sorting the genuine from the chancer.

An email print out is not a ticket. That is clearly stated on email booking confirmations. Only a ticket (be that standard stock, print-at-home, m-ticket, smartcard...) or other authority to travel is evidence of the contract between passenger and TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company). Regular acceptance of email confirmation may seem like good discretion being shown, but it can cause all sorts of problems.

Without a ticket, the passenger may not be insured as they are technically trespassing. Staff further into the journey may not show discretion, instead issuing a full Anytime fare, UPFN^▸ (Un Paid Fare Notice (used on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)))), Penalty Fare or starting the ball rolling toward prosecution.

Without a ticket, only an email confirmation, someone else may be travelling using the collected ticket.

It's surely common sense to allow sufficient time to collect a ticket, particularly at a station as busy as King's Cross. If one machine isn't working there's at least a dozen others, as well as ticket office staff. In the unlikely event all systems were down, then barrier and on-train staff would be aware of this and proper authority to travel would be given.

At all times it remains the passengers responsibility to ensure they have a ticket or other authority to travel. An email confirmation is not such authority. "The bloke on the platform said it was okay" is also not such authority.

[Bristolboy]

The problem rail staff face is sorting the genuine from the chancer.

An email print out is not a ticket. That is clearly stated on email booking confirmations. Only a ticket (be that standard stock, print-at-home, m-ticket, smartcard...) or other authority to travel is evidence of the contract between passenger and TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company). Regular acceptance of email confirmation may seem like good discretion being shown, but it can cause all sorts of problems.

Without a ticket, the passenger may not be insured as they are technically trespassing. Staff further into the journey may not show discretion, instead issuing a full Anytime fare, UPFN^▸ (Un Paid Fare Notice (used on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)))), Penalty Fare or starting the ball rolling toward prosecution.

Without a ticket, only an email confirmation, someone else may be travelling using the collected ticket.

It's surely common sense to allow sufficient time to collect a ticket, particularly at a station as busy as King's Cross. If one machine isn't working there's at least a dozen others, as well as ticket office staff. In the unlikely event all systems were down, then barrier and on-train staff would be aware of this and proper authority to travel would be given.

At all times it remains the passengers responsibility to ensure they have a ticket or other authority to travel. An email confirmation is not such authority. "The bloke on the platform said it was okay" is also not such authority.

I agree wholeheartedly with all you say particularly with regards to kings cross. I have previously had issues having travelled from stations with part time staffing and only one machine which is out of action, but generally the company in question (london midland) uses common sense and allows me to pick up tickets from euston (generally I am travelling a short distance on London midland and then a much longer distance on fgw, virgin etc).

[grahame]

The problem rail staff face is sorting the genuine from the chancer.

Agreed, ... and I also agree with you to allow plenty of time ... but

I asked a member of the East Coast platform staff what I should do, and was advised to board my train.

If you're in an unfamiliar situation and a curved ball is thrown at you, you seek help, don't you?  It's all very well for us here to have knowledge and hindsight, but the person here (who, as I understand was confirmed not be be a chancer) probably didn't have a degree in railway law and the fares system.

[JayMac]

Point taken. But the law is blind and ignorance is no defence.

Okay in this instance, there was no recourse to law, but I think there does need to be a bit of personal responsibility on the part of this particular passenger. To have tried 'several times' to retrieve his ticket without seeking out staff at this point seems a bit silly. East Coast employ floor walkers in their booking office at King's Cross where most of the TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) are located. Would've been sensible to summon one of these rather than continue to unsuccessfully retrieve a ticket. There would've more likely been a resolution of the problem at this point.

We also don't know exactly what was asked of the platform staff member, only having one side of the story from someone who failed to collect his ticket. That platform staffer may have mistaken KC's piece of paper for an East Coast print-at-home ticket.

It's telling that KC says "As my train was about to depart....." Someone in a rush it would seem....

KC also says he was fined. He wasn't, and it's very poor of the guardian to repeat this error. He was issued with an invoice (UPFN^▸ (Un Paid Fare Notice (used on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise))))) for the correct fare for his journey. East Coast allow you to buy on-board, but only Anytime fares.

[Andrew1939 from West Oxon]

The ticket machine at Hanborough station is most unreliable and only works about half the time with the touch screen often refusing to recognise that anyone is touching it and that is when it is not showing a message "Out of service" - usually because it has run out of tickets or there has been a ticket jam.
Last Wednesday I was helping an elderly lady on how to use the machine and she bought one return ticket. She then said - Oh I want another ticket for my hubby. We went through the process again but this time the machine refused to accept the same debit card that it had accepted before. I took her through the process again just in case she had put in the wrong pin but, no, it would not accept the card. In the mean time a short queue had formed behind us and the train was coming in.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Another Scheidt and Bachmann machine, possibly? 

[vacman]

And how many TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s are there at KGX? just one? I don't think so!

[thetrout]

Didn't something similar happen to MookieMoo too?

I had an incident with c2c on New Years Day, I arrived at Chalkwell Station, Ticket Office Closed and the only TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) broken down. There is also no Permit to Travel Machine there. So I had no choice but to board the train to West Ham (Where I change for Jubilee Line to Waterloo). Once I got on the train I was hoping that an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) might be about where I could buy a ticket. There was none

When I got to West Ham I tried to buy my ticket there, the ticket office there was closed too! Which meant going onto Waterloo on the Underground with no ticket, something I was hoping to avoid! I got to Waterloo and spoke to a very friendly chap at Excess Fares and explained the situation that the only TVM was OOU^▸ (out of use) and I couldn't get a ticket. He said that I would be charged ^4.00 for the Underground Fare I had used, When I enquired about the c2c portion of my journey he said and I quote: "Well you had no way to buy a ticket and I can't sell you one here so in this instance, don't lose sleep over it!"

I have since tweeted to c2c asking what I should do if this happens again and they advised I should go to Fenchurch Street to buy my ticket. Which to be honest I have mixed emotions about. When I change at West Ham, I can be in Waterloo in 15 minutes on the Jubilee Line as it's Direct... If I go to Fenchurch Street to buy my ticket, I then have to Walk to Tower Hill and get a District Line or Circle Line Train to Embankment, Change and then Bakerloo/Northern to Waterloo. Which takes me 30 - 40 minutes. That is the difference between making a Fast Train to Salisbury or being on the Hampshire Stopper!

So whilst that sounds like I am trying to dodge the fare (Which of course is definitely something I would NOT do). Why should I spend an extra 20 minutes on my journey trying to buy my ticket when they can't provide the facilities in which to do so in the bloody first place!

I dread to think what would have happened if I'd have booked an Advance Ticket!

[broadgage]

- Oh I want another ticket for my hubby. We went through the process again but this time the machine refused to accept the same debit card that it had accepted before. I took her through the process again just in case she had put in the wrong pin but, no, it would not accept the card. In the mean time a short queue had formed behind us and the train was coming in.

Others have had this problem.
AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) some ticket machines will reject repeated use of the same card.
I suspect that this is an anti fraud measure since otherwise a thief could use the same stolen or cloned card to purchase multiple tickets, and then obtain cash refunds.

This does not apply to all cards or at all locations.

[JayMac]

I dread to think what would have happened if I'd have booked an Advance Ticket!

You wouldn't have been able to collect an AP from Chalkwell, nor West Ham....

[chineseJohn]

continuing the theme of ticket machines - the one at my local station does not work in the following conditions:

- rain, screen wet you cannot use the touch screen
- sunny, the reflection makes the screen near impossible to see anything
- cold, the middle of the screen stops working

This is good case to keep the tickets clerks to continue working at stations

[grahame]

This is good case to keep the tickets clerks to continue working at stations

Or it may be a good case to be more humane to ticket machines  .  I don't think ticket clerks function very well either ... if they are cold, have wet faces, or are working in the bright sunlight to they can't see their equipment.