Intercity Express Programme (IEP) - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

This is an important bit of news.  History shows us that marginal changes in the max power output of diesel engines can have a significant effect on reliability (eg Sulzer 12LDA and Paxman Valenta):  Hitachi presumably chose their preferred power output (ie the “muzzled”) for a reason – if the engines go “unmuzzled” who’s going to pick up the tab for the inevitably higher maintenance and repair costs, and maybe lower availability, of the 800’s?

Looks like additional leasing costs or the interesting PR^▸ (Public Relations) line for GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), as I said in jest a while back, “here are your new trains, it’s now 10 minutes longer to London”.

[Tim]

if the engines go “unmuzzled” who’s going to pick up the tab for the inevitably higher maintenance and repair costs, and maybe lower availability, of the 800’s?

It will not be Hitachi.  Or rather if Hitachi is to shoulder higher maintenance costs then they will be entitled to extra money in compensation for that. 

part of me wants them to choose the muzzled version if only to keep the pressure up on finishing the electrification. 

[SandTEngineer]

There is much discussion on other forums (and apparently backed up by Roger Ford of Modern Railways) that the IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) cooler groups are not of sufficient capacity for sustained diesel running over long distances.  Remember, the trains have diesel engines that were only supposed to be able to move a train at low speed out of areas with problems on the OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") or on shortish runs without OLE (such as Bristol TM^‡(resolve) to Weston-Super-Mare).  Apparently, if you believe all you read on such forums, this is going to be a significant problem if electrification is not completed as planned.

[rogerw]

The dual modes were always going to do more than short distances. Oxford to Hereford, Swindon to Cheltenham and Bristol to Exeter were suggested.  Also it should not be forgotten that the East Coast sets will be scaling the highland main line to Inverness

[grahame]

There is much discussion on other forums (and apparently backed up by Roger Ford of Modern Railways) that the IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) cooler groups are not of sufficient capacity for sustained diesel running over long distances. 

So how have they already managed to get to Plymouth?

[stuving]

The dual modes were always going to do more than short distances. Oxford to Hereford, Swindon to Cheltenham and Bristol to Exeter were suggested.  Also it should not be forgotten that the East Coast sets will be scaling the highland main line to Inverness

Indeed, and the performance modelling required in the specification includes: Leeds/York, Newcastle/Edinburgh, Hereford/Oxford, Newbury/Exeter, Cheltenham/Swindon, Newbury/Paignton, and Aberdeen/Edinburgh. All at full performance timings, and an ambient temperature of 30 deg C (even in Stonehaven).

[DidcotPunter]

I'm hearing that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) are waiting on the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) and Hitachi to decide whether they want to run the 800s and their intended power, or at full power - 'muzzled' or 'unmuzzled' are the buzzwords being used - and as such they are preparing two separate timetables for this December.  Unmuzzled means timings similar to today's HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s until electrification is extended beyond Didcot, Muzzled means extended journey times.

I think that Roger Ford reported this in last month's Modern Railways. I thought that a deal had between Hitachi and DfT had been agreed though I could be wrong on this.

In fact, there might be a third timetable if the electro-magnetic interference issues between Reading and Didcot can't be resolved on time!

Launch still planned for mid-October on a London to Bristol/Taunton diagram, with a more comprehensive service from December, including three 180 diagrams on the North Cotswold route.

There were another series of test runs between Reading and Wantage Road last Saturday night/Sunday morning. This was apparently to test reconfigured traction packages under the OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE"). No idea if this has resolved the power supply interference issue. It was reported that on earlier set of runs on the same route earlier in February the interference situation had been improved but not completely resolved.

It has been reported on WNXX^▸ (Stored Unserviceable, Mainline Locos HQ All Classes) forum that under the latest plan 2 HST diagrams will be replaced by IETs^▸ (Intercity Express Train) from 16th October with 2 more from 13th November and another 2 from 11th December. Each HST will be replaced by 2 x 5 car 800s, so 6 units in total in service by the end of the year. In January the 180s get replaced on the Cotswold line services though here only single IET units will be used. After that more of the Pad - Bristol/Weston/ Taunton and S Wales diagrams will switch over the IETs. Obviously this is subject to change!!

[broadgage]

The dual modes were always going to do more than short distances. Oxford to Hereford, Swindon to Cheltenham and Bristol to Exeter were suggested.  Also it should not be forgotten that the East Coast sets will be scaling the highland main line to Inverness

Indeed, and the performance modelling required in the specification includes: Leeds/York, Newcastle/Edinburgh, Hereford/Oxford, Newbury/Exeter, Cheltenham/Swindon, Newbury/Paignton, and Aberdeen/Edinburgh. All at full performance timings, and an ambient temperature of 30 deg C (even in Stonehaven).

What happens at ambient temperature of 40 degrees ? entirely achievable in the southwest even if improbable in Stonehaven.

[DidcotPunter]

There is much discussion on other forums (and apparently backed up by Roger Ford of Modern Railways) that the IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) cooler groups are not of sufficient capacity for sustained diesel running over long distances. 

So how have they already managed to get to Plymouth?

On the lower power rating of 560kW (750 bhp) per engine. They have done multiple runs recently between Taunton and Exeter with one set dragging another dead one and also managed for one unit to drag a dead one away from a standing start on one of the Devon banks - all at the lower power rating.

I'm only going on what has been reported in several sources elsewhere but it appears that the high temperature shutdowns resulting from the cooler groups not coping has only occurred with the engines set at their full 700kW (940 bhp) ratings.

Not only is this concerning if the class 800s are to run at full power to maintain existing schedules in the short term, but also the 802s being built for the West Country services are also planned to run at full power to maintain timings over the Devon banks. These are planned to have larger fuel tanks fitted to provide the required range - one hopes that MTU^▸ (Motor Traction Unit) and Hitachi have designed adequate cooler groups too!

[stuving]

What happens at ambient temperature of 40 degrees ? entirely achievable in the southwest even if improbable in Stonehaven.

Really? That's a higher air temperature than has ever been recorded in Britain, let alone for for the southwest where the official record is 35.4 deg.

In any case, on the few rare days that happens, the risk of track buckling is such that trains will be hit by a lot of speed restrictions.

Incidentally, the main effect of high and low temperatures will be a high auxiliary load, all of which has to be supplied by the diesels when self-powered. Obviously that's worse for the cold limit, as heating will take more power than cooling.

With fewer engines than cars, the auxiliary load takes away a higher fraction of prime power than in a 180 or 220. And don't those use engine exhaust heat for the train cabins? I'm assuming that would help too little to be worth doing on 800s. I'm also assuming Hitachi are not being really sneaky, and using reversible chillers - though it's not impossible.

There are other tricks that can help - for example the option of shutting down heating (or cooling) during the relatively short periods of full acceleration. Again, I have no idea if that is included.

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

560 kW to 700 kW is a big leap (25 %).  If the cooler groups were designed for the former (and why would they not be?) it is not surprising that they would struggle with the latter. 

And if a 25 % increase in power output is required to maintain HST^▸ (High Speed Train) timings on 125 mph routes on diesel, they're going to be embarrassingly slow beyond Didcot when they enter service later this year if they stay at 560 kW.

[SandTEngineer]

There is much discussion on other forums (and apparently backed up by Roger Ford of Modern Railways) that the IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) cooler groups are not of sufficient capacity for sustained diesel running over long distances. 

So how have they already managed to get to Plymouth?h

They have been running at night so not yet exposed to peak summer heat?

I would never claim to be an expert in these things.  I was only relating what was being discussed on other forums I read.

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

But you may be an expert for this question, S & T E:

What is the “electrical interference” problem being experienced?  Is this affecting other equipment on the train, or other railway equipment eg signalling, or local residents eg TV goes funny when an 800 goes by?

[SandTEngineer]

But you may be an expert for this question, S & T E:

What is the “electrical interference” problem being experienced?  Is this affecting other equipment on the train, or other railway equipment eg signalling, or local residents eg TV goes funny when an 800 goes by?

I've not heard anything through the S&T^▸ (Signalling and Telegraph) grapevine (yet).  ET (Electric Train) might be able to tell us more

[stuving]

560 kW to 700 kW is a big leap (25 %).  If the cooler groups were designed for the former (and why would they not be?) it is not surprising that they would struggle with the latter. 

And if a 25 % increase in power output is required to maintain HST^▸ (High Speed Train) timings on 125 mph routes on diesel, they're going to be embarrassingly slow beyond Didcot when they enter service later this year if they stay at 560 kW.

Why not? Well, the engine and alternator are 700 kW ones, and indeed the whole train was designed around that power level. The 802s use that power, and it is available in 800s when an engine fails. The muzzling was only decided on at a late stage in the contractual haggling, so I can't really see why anyone would redesign the engine cooling or anything else based on it.

As to why there may be cooling issues at the moment during testing runs, there's a wide range of possibilities and without more details I'm not going to guess whether it's really important or not. If it is a fault with the basic design it would be very surprising, given the technical reputations of Hitachi and MTU^▸ (Motor Traction Unit).