Intercity Express Programme (IEP) - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[TrainSpy]

Why would they replace the 387s? they've only just ordered the new ones...

[Rhydgaled]

The electric class is now presumably dead in the water at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) as they are all now specified electro-diesel.

So only two classes with GWR - 801 & 802. (the 800 was the electric? I can't remember)

Logic does say they'll be 802s, otherwise they'd be added to the build at Newton Aycliffe, surely?

Why? The difference between 802 and (bi-mode) 800 is pretty trivial, much less than between 800 and (electric) 801. The choice of plant was based on capacity, surely.

I think the difference between all three classes (800, 801 and 802) is pretty trivial. The 801 is the 'electric' and if I've interpreted what has been written about them correctly they are just the same as the 800s but with fewer diesel-engine coaches. As far as manufacturing is concerned, the larger fuel tanks and different brake system of the class 802s might even be a bigger change than producing 800s versus 801s, but that's just a guess. Although GWR isn't getting 801s anymore, there are still quite a number on-order for the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line).

[Adelante_CCT]

If they are to replace 387s then I would have thought they were for the Oxford services where 9 car would be needed. 

Why would they replace the 387s? they've only just ordered the new ones...

Technically some of the 387s are to replace the class 365s which are no longer heading to our region, these 7 new AT300s will cover for the 'cascaded' 387s

[paul7575]

Originally there were to be 58 4 car EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit), 21 x 365 and 37 x 387.  The recent uplift in 387 numbers was to 45 in total, so on the face of it 21 of them replace the 365s, with another 24 for services originally planned for 387s.

So the shortfall of 4 car EMUs is 13, or 6.5 x 8 car. We need to think what a broad equivalent is in terms of AT300/802, given that they are much longer vehicles. 7 x 9 car would be a really useful capacity increase, getting on for 50% longer trains...

Assuming 160m > 234m train lengths.

Paul

[ChrisB]

Oxford & Cotswolds, yes, I reckon too

[The Tall Controller]

The 7 new 9 car trains will 'cascade' 5 car AT300s to run Bedwyn services.

[IndustryInsider]

Are we sure they're 9-cars?  Other forums are quite confident they are 5-car units.

[Ollie]

I've been told they will have 9.

[Adelante_CCT]

Originally there were to be 58 4 car EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit), 21 x 365 and 37 x 387. 

Originally originally wasn't it just the 29 x 387 before the first of the 8 new ones.

So in the process of a year or two, we've gone from:
•57 IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) units
•29 not quite new class 387s (2-4 years old)
•21 class 365s (20-25 years old)

To:
•93 IEP units
•45 brand new class 387s.

Pretty pleased with that  

[Adelante_CCT]

Are we sure they're 9-cars?  Other forums are quite confident they are 5-car units.

I don't speak Italian but this article states 9 coaches:

http://www.lanazione.it/pistoia/hitachi-treni-londra-1.2402438

[broadgage]

Are we sure they're 9-cars?  Other forums are quite confident they are 5-car units.

I would presume 5 car.
My natural cynicism says they will be 5 car. If a press release refers to "additional trains" without mentioning the length of said new trains then it is a reasonable assumption that they will be short ones.
If the additional trains ARE to be 9 car then I believe that the press release would have said "9 car ----"

[IndustryInsider]

I would presume 5 car.

Certainly some confusion out there.  Ollie's been told 9-car, the article Adelante_CCT linked to says 9-car, ChrisB, TrainSpy and Rob T on here say 9-car.  However several posters on the wnxx forum are confident of 5-car including Mark Hopwood apparently confirming that to staff yesterday. 

[grahame]

Certainly some confusion out there.  Ollie's been told 9-car, the article Adelante_CCT linked to says 9-car, ChrisB, TrainSpy and Rob T on here say 9-car.  However several posters on the wnxx forum are confident of 5-car including Mark Hopwood apparently confirming that to staff yesterday. 

There are usually very well placed and informed sources both saying "9" and saying "5".  I wouldn't like to bet either way at this stage.

[paul7575]

Originally there were to be 58 4 car EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit), 21 x 365 and 37 x 387. 

Originally originally wasn't it just the 29 x 387 before the first of the 8 new ones.

The first concrete mention I saw was in the Direct Award franchise agreement's rolling stock tables, in about April 2015, and it definitely included (and still shows although obviously superseded) both the 29 that would have originally come from GTR, and a separate 8 new build.   Note that delivery of the extra 8 was originally due next January, before the last batches from GTR.

The original plan had the following, page 147, but now only if academic interest as both numbers and dates are overtaken by events:

Note i:
29 Class 387 units (116 vehicles) are delivered in four distinct phases:
- 6 units by end of March 2016;
- 4 units by end of April 2016;
- 8 units by end of February 2017; and
- 11 units by end of March 2017
Additional 8 Class 387 units:
Delivery is based on final acceptance, which is at a rate of 2 units every two weeks starting in the second week of January 2017.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/486668/red-fgw-franchise-agreement.pdf

Paul

[paul7575]

Are we sure they're 9-cars?  Other forums are quite confident they are 5-car units.

I don't speak Italian but this article states 9 coaches:

http://www.lanazione.it/pistoia/hitachi-treni-londra-1.2402438

Isn't the price shown looking more like 63 vehicles than 35, at £139 million?