Intercity Express Programme (IEP) - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[didcotdean]

At weekends if I can't reserve in advance it usually is an upgrade to first class. As I have said before I will never stand on a train; I've seen what can happen to those that do.

[Rhydgaled]

Not sure if it's appropriate to post this in the 'Meet the Manager' board, so I'm posting here instead (from "Question 4 for Ben Rule - 19.36 - The future between Exeter and Plymouth" topic):

Which prompts me to ask about the expectations for SET^▸ (Super Express Train (now IET)) operation through Dawlish during periods of severe weather; in the past HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) handled the conditions much better than the Voyagers which on the face of it are not dissimilar to the SETs.

The SETs will only run between Paddington - Newbury, Oxford, Bristol and South Wales. They won't go near Dawlish.

That is an interesting comment, does this mean IC125 retention is confirmed and the additional new trains order (for trains which are basicly SETs with larger fuel tanks) is not going ahead? And does this mean Network Rail is able to de-scope the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.) route clearance programme, which had Plymouth and Paignton as core routes and the lines beyond to Newquay and Penzance as non-core parts of the programme? Also, the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) draft diagrams showed IEP services to Paignton, if everything through Dawlish is going to be existing stock then maybe that's how FirstGW intend to ensure everything on the IEP routes that needs to be is at least 9 coaches.

[ChrisB]

Has Ben replied as thinking SETs^▸ (Super Express Train (now IET)) mean 'electric's?.....coz bi-modes will certainly reach Exeter/Plymouth....so would it be better to refer to them under their Class number? 800/801?

[grahame]

Has Ben replied as thinking SETs^▸ (Super Express Train (now IET)) mean 'electric's?.....

I think, yes, he has written for electric operation / units ... think Weston-super-mare, think Cheltenham Spa when you read his answer.

[DidcotPunter]

BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) report on IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.) testing at Old Dalby in Leicestershire

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33533467

[broadgage]

Where will surfboards be held in the summer on Newquay services?

Irrelevant in the near future.  As discussed many times previously, IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.) are not going to be used on the Devon and Cornwall services.

Paul

The above was no doubt true when posted but it has now been confirmed that far West services are to be downgraded to new and mainly much shorter DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) of a similar design to the IEPs.
So how are surfboards and other bulky holiday luggage to be carried ?

[ChrisB]

The lay-outs of these additionals (anyone know the class? 802s?) may or may not follow the same as the 800/801s....as the ok has just been given, my guess is that the uinterior design has not yet been fixced in stone.

[patch38]

Some interesting footage of Class 800 delivery/test moves here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A4d_qtuRJs

[IndustryInsider]

Thanks for the link.

Stop it at 8'14" and you get an impression of just how long a 10-car formation is!

[Thatcham Crossing]

Looooooong isn't it! Brakes sounded like a Class 180.

[broadgage]

Last nights fiasco (large scale signalling failure, thousands delayed, some passengers passed out due to heat and crowding) has got me thinking about how robust is the specification for the air conditioning on the new trains.

Is it required to work even in adverse conditions, with a substantial penalty payable for failures ? or is it considered "nice to have, sometimes it works and sometimes it does not" ? as is the case with class 158s/159s

I would hope that the specification is watertight without wiggle room about "it was too hot outside" or the famous "the train was overcrowded and the system was not designed for that"

A sensible specification would be along the lines of "the passenger saloon must be reliably cooled to a temperature not exceeding 23 degrees under the following conditions.
External air temperature of 45 degrees with 80% relative humidity.
No wind combined with intense sunlight.
Train not moving.
Passenger numbers at 140% of the seating capacity."

Does anyone know how watertight the actual specification is ?

[stuving]

Last nights fiasco (large scale signalling failure, thousands delayed, some passengers passed out due to heat and crowding) has got me thinking about how robust is the specification for the air conditioning on the new trains.

Is it required to work even in adverse conditions, with a substantial penalty payable for failures ? or is it considered "nice to have, sometimes it works and sometimes it does not" ? as is the case with class 158s/159s

I would hope that the specification is watertight without wiggle room about "it was too hot outside" or the famous "the train was overcrowded and the system was not designed for that"

A sensible specification would be along the lines of "the passenger saloon must be reliably cooled to a temperature not exceeding 23 degrees under the following conditions.
External air temperature of 45 degrees with 80% relative humidity.
No wind combined with intense sunlight.
Train not moving.
Passenger numbers at 140% of the seating capacity."

Does anyone know how watertight the actual specification is ?

The performance is largely specified by reference to BS EN 13129-1:2002. Some items are stated in the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.) specification, notably:

TS1620 The HVAC performance of the saloon of the IEP Vehicle must be calculated on the basis of an interior layout which includes a minimum of 90 seats in the saloon, with a Fully Laden load. Additionally the HVAC system must ensure sufficient air quality for the safe carriage of passengers when loaded to the Crush Laden Condition.

I can't see anything that says what "sufficient air quality" means, though it could be defined in an Act somewhere. As to "Crush Laden Condition", that is defined as:

TS1890 Crush Laden Load:
Means the IEP Train in Tare Condition plus a passenger load of all seats occupied with further standee passenger numbers equivalent to 4 passengers per m2 of available standing space (in accordance with ^long distance^ category as detailed in table 3 of BS EN15663:2009 ^Railway applications. Definition of vehicle reference masses^). The mass of each passenger (which shall include that passenger^s luggage) shall be assumed to be 80kg (in accordance with ^long distance^ category as detailed in table 3 of BS EN 15663:2009 ^Railway applications. Definition of vehicle reference masses^). A mass of 300kg/m2 shall also be assumed for luggage compartments as defined in BS EN15663:2009 ^Railway applications. Definition of vehicle reference masses^.

Reliability and penalties are not in the technical spec. - they must be in the contract, which is not (AFAIK^▸ ('as far as I know')) public.

[TonyK]

Rail News reports the opening of the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.) factory:

'Momentous occasion' as Intercity Express factory opens

THE new plant where hundreds of new rail vehicles are to be assembled for intercity and urban services in England, Scotland and Wales has been opened today.

The ^82 million factory at Newton Aycliffe in Country Durham is owned by Hitachi, which is a key member of the consortium Agility Trains.

Agility won contracts to build two fleets of Intercity Express trains for the East Coast and Great Western Main Lines, although the introduction of the GW^» (Great Western - used as an abbreviation for the area / lines under the Great Western franchise, as opposed to FGW which includes "First", the company operating them too. For tickets - about) in two or three years from now is bogged down in controversy as the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) remains in dispute with First Great Western about staffing and on-board catering facilities.

The plant will also produce trains in the Hitachi AT series for the newly electrified route between Glasgow Queen Street and Edinburgh, and for Great Western intercity services between London and stations in Devon and Cornwall.

Hitachi Ltd Chairman and CEO^▸ (Chief Executive Officer), Hiroaki Nakanishi, welcomed transport secretary Patrick McLoughlin MP^▸ (Member of Parliament, or Mile Post - a method of measuring the railway in miles and chains from a starting point - usually London, depending on context) and rail minister Claire Perry MP, along with over 500 invited guests, to the opening ceremony.

Welcoming the opening, the Prime Minister David Cameron said: ^This massive investment from Hitachi shows confidence in the strength of Britain^s growing economy. This new train facility will not only provide good jobs for working people but will build the next generation of intercity trains, improving travel for commuters and families, as well as strengthening the infrastructure we need to help the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) grow.^

Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne said: ^Today we see a major boost for the UK with Hitachi investing millions in returning train manufacturing to the North East. This state of the art facility will grow and secure jobs for decades to come and will help us to build the Northern Powerhouse, while at the same time revitalising one of our oldest industries in the region within which this tradition is synonymous.^

Hiroaki Nakanishi of Hitachi added: ^Today is a momentous occasion for Hitachi Rail, Newton Aycliffe and the British rail industry. We have brought train design and manufacturing back home to its birthplace in the North East.^

The Newton Aycliffe plant will be the second major train-building factory in Britain. Bombardier runs the last former British Rail works at Litchurch Lane in Derby, where the Canadian firm is about to construct a fleet of 600 vehicles for Crossrail.

[Rhydgaled]

Rail News reports the opening of the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.) factory:

The plant will also produce trains in the Hitachi AT series for the newly electrified route between Glasgow Queen Street and Edinburgh, and for Great Western intercity services between London and stations in Devon and Cornwall.

Eh? Pretty sure I read somewhere that Hitachi's UK^▸ (United Kingdom) assembly plant is going to be fully occupied screwing together trains for the ScotRail and IEP orders and that the Devon/Cornwall AT300 order will therefore be fully-assembled in Japan and shipped as complete trains.

[TonyK]

[Eh? Pretty sure I read somewhere that Hitachi's UK^▸ (United Kingdom) assembly plant is going to be fully occupied screwing together trains for the ScotRail and IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.) orders and that the Devon/Cornwall AT300 order will therefore be fully-assembled in Japan and shipped as complete trains.

I thought you said they were glued together, with something based on rendered down horses.