Intercity Express Programme (IEP) - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) say they make more sales with their trolley than when they had buffets...

[Super Guard]

XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) say they make more sales with their trolley than when they had buffets...

Have you ever seen evidence of that?  I have heard the opposite.  It's not that they make more sales - it's just the cost of providing the trolley vs buffet/maintenance etc is lower so they actually make "less loss" with a trolley which XC prefer.  I travel on XC quite regularly and hardly see anyone buying items from the trolley.  I don't see why there is always a race to the bottom with "improvements".. What is Virgin thinking then for buffets on IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)?

XC might get away with a trolley on 3 standard class voyager coaches, but I personally think 1 trolley to serve 7(?) standard class coaches is not sensible, compared to a buffet position half way down the train.  Part of the problem with buffet sales is people don't want to leave their seats or they might lose them, which shouldn't be an issue on IEP.

It's a shame, a proper trial cannot be agreed to carry out a trolley vs buffet on certain trains, but i'm sure both the company and unions would struggle to agree a trial.

I'd also like to see mini-buffets turned and used as coach D instead of F to see if that would improve sales providing it in a more sensible location in standard class.

While it is good to see the quality products that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) serve, it would also be good to see something like a ^4 meal deal of sandwich/crisps or fruit and drink.  While it may produce a tiny margin compared to some of the other products for sale, if you can change the perception of buffet being too expensive and "oh i'll just go to Sainsbury's before I get on", you may see higher sales overall.  I'd rather 10p profit x 10 customers, than ^1 profit x 1 and 9 customers spending their money elsewhere.

Catering makes losses, it's all about reducing losses.  Could stock taking be improved?  Sales and stock levels being linked to ordering to reduce wastage?  Cameras in buffet to remove any temptation of staff theft/fraud?  Could fraud with credit cards be reduced with new chip/pin terminals with on-line authorising?  Would sourcing products in-house instead of paying Rail Gourmet improve margins?

If trolleys truly increase service and sales, then fair enough.  However, I am of the belief that more can be done to improve the argument for the buffet.

[BerkshireBugsy]

Super guard you make some very interesting points

I think the idea of a meal deal is a good one. I've not much experience of catering on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) as I haven't used them for at least a year but I know that on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) they cut the price of some perishable items in the evening to get rid of them. Although , like you say, introducing a meal deal would reduce profit margins per sale but again they may sale more by volume.

From my memory of the trolley services on 4/5 car XC class 221 (I think) one of the challenges the staff faced was getting the trolley through the carriages in the first place when the service is full

[ChrisB]

XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) say they make more sales with their trolley than when they had buffets...

Have you ever seen evidence of that?  I have heard the opposite.  It's not that they make more sales - it's just the cost of providing the trolley vs buffet/maintenance etc is lower so they actually make "less loss" with a trolley which XC prefer.

A discussion I had with senior Manager said "make more money" with the trolley. Thinking through what you suggest, yes, I guess that statement does also fit your thinking....

XC might get away with a trolley on 3 standard class voyager coaches, but I personally think 1 trolley to serve 7(?) standard class coaches is not sensible, compared to a buffet position half way down the train. 

Won't the obvious place to put the buffet be close/next to the kitchen - that way you could offer hot food from the buffet a la HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) now, when a Travelling Chef was aboard. Separating the catering must lead to inefficiencies?

Part of the problem with buffet sales is people don't want to leave their seats or they might lose them, which shouldn't be an issue on IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.).

The other part is the price of course, which isn't going to change much in mark-up from cost.

I'd also like to see mini-buffets turned and used as coach D instead of F to see if that would improve sales providing it in a more sensible location in standard class.

But that would mean your 1st class customers having to walk further at weekends (assuming same staffing as now - which is why it is where it is.

While it is good to see the quality products that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) serve, it would also be good to see something like a ^4 meal deal of sandwich/crisps or fruit and drink. 

There'd be no profit in a price that low on train....but yes, it would be good. Perhaps ^5 deal though? It'll always be cheaper to carry-on - and you will always get a better choice to bring-on. Which is why a trolley with drinks/snacks will do better than a limited-choice buffet....

[JayMac]

And yet, despite all that, Virgin have guaranteed that their IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) will have buffets.

[ChrisB]

Maybe don't want a fight with the unions....?

And, as Virgin only have a 10% interest, maybe its Stagecoach's decision?

[JayMac]

Virgin made the announcement. Stagecoach have form - replacing buffets with trolleys on EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about).

Regardless of who made the decision it shows that one operator believes buffets have a future. That's the only firm announcement we've had on catering provision on the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) fleet. Everything else is speculation.

[ChrisB]

Isn't that what you do most of the time on here? :-)

Virgin has made the vast majority of the East Coast announcements - maybe that's part of the branding 10%?

[stuving]

And yet, despite all that, Virgin have guaranteed that their IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) will have buffets.

Could it just come down to the level of sales varying between the two routes? It would not need all that much - if you take 10% off the "just about worth doing" level of sales, it could well drop into the "can't justify this" bin. Differences in duration, stopping intervals, and the kind of people, their onward travel timings, station facilities, all sorts of factors come into it.

I imagine all TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) would like to offer at least a buffet service for all passengers, as it flatters their self-image, and even if it's not demanded in the franchise it looks good in a beauty contest.

Though I can think of another aspect too: a newcomer taking on a franchise may take an optimistic view (perhaps thinking they can make a go of it where other lesser TOCs have failed). Later on they may throw in the towel. I assume bidders do not get access to catering sales data, so some guesswork (informed by experience, obviously) is inevitable.

[IndustryInsider]

The RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) continues to push hard for the retention of a buffet car, as well as a 'guard' - as I've said all along, this one still has a long way to go before being settled one way or the another!

http://www.rmt.org.uk/campaigns/rail/intercity-express-defend-services-and-safety/

[ChrisB]

I don't think there's any chance of the guard/train manager/etc not being retained....the catering less so. But a job with trolley is a job from the buffet...maybe different grade/salary, but that might be easier to negotiate. And they've said (I think) that the 1st class host is being retained too

[TonyK]

I don't think there's any chance of the guard/train manager/etc not being retained....the catering less so. But a job with trolley is a job from the buffet...maybe different grade/salary, but that might be easier to negotiate. And they've said (I think) that the 1st class host is being retained too

I would hope so too. We've discussed the role of the TM^‡(resolve) elsewhere, and agreed that it is an important role in long-distance services for a number of reasons, beginning with safety.

[TonyK]

With or without buffet, the first bit of IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) has arrived! The BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) announces the arrival of the delayed IEP at Southampton Docks:

InterCity 125 v Hitachi: What are the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)'s new trains like?

By Tom de Castella
BBC News Magazine



The Hitachi 800 training carriage is lifted off a boat


Pendolino probably, perhaps a Javelin, possibly even a Voyager. Not many modern trains are household names in the manner of a Rocket or a Mallard.

A new train is arriving from Japan with big shoes to fill. An early prototype Hitachi Class 800 Super Express will be unloaded at Southampton docks as a first step to replacing the familiar InterCity 125.

Over the next few years, 122 of these hi-tech trains will be assembled at a new plant in County Durham. All will be electric and almost half will be able to switch between running on overhead wires or - where a line has not been electrified - as diesels.

The first trains will run on the Great Western main line from 2017 and the East Coast main line from 2018.

Rail writer Christian Wolmar says the new Hitachi will be the standard UK train over the coming decades. "It is due to become the 747 of the railways."

Under the Intercity Express Programme (IEP), the Department for Transport in 2011 awarded a ^5.7bn contract to Agility Trains, a consortium of Hitachi and infrastructure investor John Laing.

[ChrisB]

Wonder why they used a stock shot? I'm sure that's it being loaded in Japan....

On BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) twitter, there's this


and more clearly, this

[Sprog]

Wonder why they used a stock shot? I'm sure that's it being loaded in japan...

Deff. not a stock photo:

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/first-class-800-train-for-iep-lands-in-uk?utm_source=Rail+Technology+Magazine&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=5457537_RTM+Newsletter+Mar+15+Week+2&dm_i=IJS,38Z29,2LIJ5H,BMQ5P,1