Intercity Express Programme (IEP) - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Makes no difference really, it's still demand at Didcot ...

No, it does make a difference ... if it is demand from people who want to travel to Oxford, etc., then the choice between changing onto the Thames Valley train at Didcot, or onto a Bristol to Bedford service at Swindon is going to come down to a good journey profile.  But if the flow is to Didcot itself ...

[ChrisB]

Errr....suggestion was to NOT stop at Swindon either...:-)

[grahame]

Errr....suggestion was to NOT stop at Swindon either...:-)

Oh I know ... I'm musing wider on where we may be going in the future.   

[John R]

For those who are interested, this month's Modern Railways has the latest seating plans. A new measure, posterior/loo is introduced, which hints that leg room may become cross-legged room.

Also, no facility for a buffet car, just a trolley service. I wonder has any modelling been done as to how long it would take a trolley to get through 526 (standard) seats. (One problem with a trolley is that passengers feel they have to wait for the trolley to get to them, rather than going to the buffet when they feel like it.)

Given the problems last time FGW^▸ (First Great Western) tried to introduce trolleys, I wonder has this been thought through. Although I understand that EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) has switched to trolleys, so maybe DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) regard this as not a problem.

Another negative, from my perspective, is that the vast majority of the first class single seats become 'uni-directional" (aka airline). For solo business travellers wanting to spread paperwork, laptop etc, I suspect they'll migrate to the tabled double seats, leaving the single seats relatively unused.

[broadgage]

I have long held rather negative views regarding these new trains, and the recent magazine article has reinforced such views.

Well over half the seats in steerage are bus style, not facing across tables.
No catering beyond a trolley in steerage
Not enough toilets.
The wretched bus seats have even invaded first class.
A very low proportion of First class for long distance business travel.

Leg room remains to be seen, but experience with other new trains suggests that it will be worse than expected.

[ChrisB]

The stats on buffet vs trolley are interesting.

TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) report better sales from a trolley - probably because pax don't like leaving their seats and can make on-the-spot decisions as the trolley passes....I think we've possibly seen the end of buffets.

Women *like* bus seats in general, coz they hate playing footsie under tables. Come & watch pax on Chiltern....but 1st class is meant for business and thus each seat ought to have a proper table.

[IndustryInsider]

but 1st class is meant for business and thus each seat ought to have a proper table.

At certain times of the day, yes.  But with the advent of cheaper 1st class advances, it is becoming more and more for the 'masses' who just want a more comfortable journey.  For example, the number of elderly passengers who use a senior railcard in combination with an advance 1st class ticket has rocketed in the last ten years, with my own parents joining that particular club whenever they can.  I can tell you right now that their own personal preference is for two airline seats with a nice view out of the window.  So, providing some airline style seats is no bad thing in my mind, though the ratio of tabled seats should be much higher in first class than airline - say a 75/25% split or thereabouts?  Not sure what the rstio is with the latest specification?

[broadgage]

I suspect that when the new trains come into use, that we will see far fewer heavily discounted first class tickets being sold.
Surely the purpose of the present heavily discounted advance first tickets is to fill first class seats that would otherwise be unused.
The new trains have a much smaller percentage of first class, therefore much less need for discounting to fill them.

[Rhydgaled]

I have long held rather negative views regarding these new trains, and the recent magazine article has reinforced such views.

Well over half the seats in steerage are bus style, not facing across tables.
No catering beyond a trolley in steerage
Not enough toilets.
The wretched bus seats have even invaded first class.
A very low proportion of First class for long distance business travel.

Leg room remains to be seen, but experience with other new trains suggests that it will be worse than expected.

The main problems with 'bus seats' in my opinion are lack of legroom and fact half of them will normally align with a window pillar, because the size of windows does not really permitt a seating layout that ensures all seats have an unobstructed view, unless all seats are at table bays. The only stock I've used which provides plenty of legroom in 'bus-style' seating is class 175s, but they have an array of other aspects which are rather less attractive.

As for catering, I think the old spec of an 8-car IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) have a buffet in standard class. I wonder who (DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), Hitachi, East Coast or FirstGW) made the decision to restrict buffet/kitchen facilities to first class?

The stats on buffet vs trolley are interesting.

TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) report better sales from a trolley - probably because pax don't like leaving their seats and can make on-the-spot decisions as the trolley passes....I think we've possibly seen the end of buffets.

Women *like* bus seats in general, coz they hate playing footsie under tables. Come & watch pax on Chiltern....but 1st class is meant for business and thus each seat ought to have a proper table.

I suppose I don't often have somebody sit opposite me at a table, but when I do it rarely seems to cause footsie. Footsie seems to be more likely when the the seat opposite is facing the same way as the seat behind it (as opposed to the seats being back-to-back).

I understand passengers not wanting to leave their seats. However, a trolley does not provide a sufficently wide range of options. Most importantly, they do not provide proper meals, only snacks. If making a long road journey, one has a chance of finding motorway services en-route able to serve you a full evening meal. On a long rail journey that doesn't involve an INTERCITY service (and even they rarely have a cooked meal service and when they do the menu doesn't normally appeal to me) you might reach your destination and find the pubs are shut or only serve drinks. You are left with a peice of flapjack from the trolley for dinner. Not at all satisfying. We need more trains with buffets, not less, in my opinion.

What really gets me with IEP is there is still a kitchen, but only in the 1st class driving vehicle. British Rail had it right with the IC225 and IC125, there is only one buffet car but it is suitated between 1st and standard, meaning either can make use of it.

[JayMac]

I suspect that when the new trains come into use, that we will see far fewer heavily discounted first class tickets being sold.
Surely the purpose of the present heavily discounted advance first tickets is to fill first class seats that would otherwise be unused.
The new trains have a much smaller percentage of first class, therefore much less need for discounting to fill them.

On the major flow (London<->Bristol) that these trains will be running on, there is expected to be a doubling of frequency. Doesn't that mean extra seats in both Standard and First?

Other flows, such as London<->Cheltenham, London<->Westbury/Exeter and London<->Worcester/Hereford are also expected to see an increased frequency.

Now both the interior specification and the final timetables are neither set in stone yet, so it remains to be seen; what the catering will be, how many toilets there are, how many airline seats/tables there are, what the proportion of Advance Purchase fares will be.

Regarding buffets specifically, I'll also mourn their passing, but if anyone can find a way to make the space pay, versus using it for seating, then it'd be wrong to not have them. Truth is, they rarely cover their costs.

New trains, faster journey times, increased frequency. It's all doom and gloom isn't it?  

[IndustryInsider]

I suspect that when the new trains come into use, that we will see far fewer heavily discounted first class tickets being sold.
Surely the purpose of the present heavily discounted advance first tickets is to fill first class seats that would otherwise be unused.
The new trains have a much smaller percentage of first class, therefore much less need for discounting to fill them.

And to add to bignosemac's comments, my parents usually use CrossCountry which, despite it's terrible crowding and single first class carriage on the routes they travel on, still manages to provide some very reasonable first class advance prices.

[broadgage]

"As for catering, I think the old spec of an 8-car IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) have a buffet in standard class. I wonder who (DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), Hitachi, East Coast or FirstGW) made the decision to restrict buffet/kitchen facilities to first class?"

This is known as progress ! Still time for more progress.
I suspect that when the trains arrive, that "capacity will have been improved" that is at least one more row of seats, 92 per vehicle instead of 88, and one or two fewer toilets.

[Red Squirrel]

Can anyone save me the bother of looking it up, by telling me how the cattle class seat pitch differs between the current IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) proposal and the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)? If they have reduced it by more than about a millimetre, then that'll be the end of long-distance rail travel for me.

[IndustryInsider]

"As for catering, I think the old spec of an 8-car IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) have a buffet in standard class. I wonder who (DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), Hitachi, East Coast or FirstGW) made the decision to restrict buffet/kitchen facilities to first class?"

This is known as progress ! Still time for more progress.
I suspect that when the trains arrive, that "capacity will have been improved" that is at least one more row of seats, 92 per vehicle instead of 88, and one or two fewer toilets.

No surprise to see you decline to comment on bignosemac and my responses to your rather swingeing statement about availability of advance first class fares come the advent of IEP's, and instead choose to repeat the same old opinions and phrases.   

At the end of the day we'll just have to wait and see when we first get to see one in its final specification in real life.  Not too long now.  Should it be an absolute disaster in every respect like you predict then I will happily hold up my hands and say so (as well as being bloody annoyed with the DfT!).

Can anyone save me the bother of looking it up, by telling me how the cattle class seat pitch differs between the current IEP proposal and the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)? If they have reduced it by more than about a millimetre, then that'll be the end of long-distance rail travel for me.

I think it increases, but I'll let someone save me the bother of looking it up too.   

[anthony215]

Yes the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) class 800/801 units have more seats in each carriage compared to a hst although not by much.

Anyway we should have a better understanding of how these new units will be like when the mock up is completed.

I do hope that they wont be but I can see us having some problems with these new trains although I do hope they will not be really problematic