Intercity Express Programme (IEP) - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

Quoting seems to be b*gg*red....

Too many pax for the CL in the peak prevents splitting at Oxford. Lenthen main stations as far as Moreton & split there may be a possibility though.

[eightf48544]

THere's two solutions really - either more services (eg every 30 minutes in each peak rather than hourly) or longer platforms. Both work, the latter is cheaper (one-off cost)

From experience we probably need both.  If trains are short but frequent it seems that certain trains will always be overcrowded and need to be lenghtened. With the Virgin Princess CC timetable with frequent short Voyagers it soon became apparent certain trains soon became too full.

Look at the Pendelinos now 11 cars and very frequent!

If rail is going to help fulfill the countries transport needs we are going to need both more frequent and longer trains, which will be costly.

[Electric train]

What has to be remembered is the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.) spec was written by that well know railway operator DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) so of course they have it correct 

[Network SouthEast]

I have to say I have softened my attitude to IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.) recently. Having read the spec, they do generally have the right idea such as seats around tables, adequate luggage space etc... DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) may not know how to build trains, but they do have a good idea of what it is like to travel inside of one.

[Andrew1939 from West Oxon]

Agreed with NSE^▸ (Network South East). The problem seems to be that the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.) has a specification that is trying to deal with many different train needs and thus with so much compromise necessary, doesn't satisfy everything.

[Electric train]

I have to say I have softened my attitude to IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.) recently. Having read the spec, they do generally have the right idea such as seats around tables, adequate luggage space etc... DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) may not know how to build trains, but they do have a good idea of what it is like to travel inside of one.

Agreed with NSE^▸ (Network South East). The problem seems to be that the IEP has a specification that is trying to deal with many different train needs and thus with so much compromise necessary, doesn't satisfy everything.

I agree it not easy to get the spec right, the HST^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units))'s don't met all that has been asked of them although they have exceeded what they were designed to do.

I also think Hitachi are putting a lot of effort in to get the IEP's right, they are the new kids on the block in Europe and I think they will set a standard that Siemens, Bombardier etc will have to match.  Hitachi also have 2 other trains they are putting forward one they have put in as the bid for Crossrail

[IndustryInsider]

I have to say I have softened my attitude to IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.) recently. Having read the spec, they do generally have the right idea such as seats around tables, adequate luggage space etc... DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) may not know how to build trains, but they do have a good idea of what it is like to travel inside of one.

I tend to agree - based on what I have seen so far.  Certainly the number of tables in standard class at 8 per carriage is, in my opinion, just about the right compromise - after all, that's 49 tables giving almost 200 seats at tables per 9-car Electric Train.  Toilet provision at 11 per 9-car train is also about right in my opinion.  There can never be enough luggage space it seems these days, but difficult to be too sure without seeing the final train in person.

[broadgage]

My concern is not so much the published spec, but the fact that presumably this can still be altered.
By the time that the new units come into use, growth in passenger numbers will ensure that they are at least as overcrowded as are present trains.
If, as suggested above, 5 car trains are to replace 8 car HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) the crowding will be a lot worse from day one.

I therefore forsee calls, for example to build a "few" sets as high density in order to allow 5 car units to provide "similar" seat numbers to an HST.
Then, "why not make them all like that, a uniform fleet is so much more flexible" and of course the infamous "it is what passengers want, surveys show it"

Some years ago on these forums I stated that the new trains would consist mainly of short units with a few longer ones. A number of respected members took issue with this and felt that I was being unduly negative.
Well the order for the GW^» (Great Western - used as an abbreviation for the area / lines under the Great Western franchise, as opposed to FGW which includes "First", the company operating them too. For tickets - about) certainly seems to consist of more half size trains than full size !
Though I grant that the short units are now 5 car and not 4 as was initialy suggested.

[anthony215]

A mock up timetable produced by the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) has appeared on  the Wnxx forum which will interest a few members on here.

The timetable just shows the Bristol TM^▸ (Train Manager, or possibly Ticket Machine, depending on context) to London Paddington services.

According to one post although this isn't confirmed it seems there will be a micture of 9 carriage electric and 5 carriage bi-modes on the London Paddington - Cardiff/Swansea services.

Hopefully the 5 carriage bi-modes will be doubled up during the peaks although it seems the south wales services will be skipping Didcot.

[John R]

Very interesting. I'm guessing that you can tell the doubled up diagrams as they are shown twice, so showing where a second unit gets added.

Interesting that the north somerset services are routed via Parkway, thus speeding up journey times to Paddington, though will make a lot of people very unhappy who currently commute from west to east of Bristol (including me). Now I clearly have a vested interest here, but I would have thought that the additional services should be the Bristol starters, as that layers on additional services but retains existing journey opportunities.

[anthony215]

This is another timtable which shows all the GW^» (Great Western - used as an abbreviation for the area / lines under the Great Western franchise, as opposed to FGW which includes "First", the company operating them too. For tickets - about) services with IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.) which is well
worth having a browse through.

Seems the Swansea - London services are non stopping between Newport & Reading.

[JayMac]

Seems the Swansea - London services are non stopping between Newport & Reading.

Which leaves Swindon (and connections into Swindon) to Cardiff as hourly, verses half hourly currently. 

[TonyK]

Interesting. I am curious about the bi-mode trains (making me bi-curious - not a word to Mrs FTN! please). Seems that two 5-car bi units leave Paddington together, under electric power. At Bristol, they separate, with one continuing to Weston. Does the other one do anything whilst its partner is away? Presumably if it did, another driver would be needed. Also, it looks like one poor bi unit ends up at Weston overnight. Seems odd - if it goes to the depot at Filton, it looks like it goes empty, which seems like a wasted revenue opportunity. Why not have a Weston to Abbey Wood service? Although then, we would need a conductor.

I like the look of the diagrams, which see some of the the trains running almost 1000 miles per day. Not the finished product, I know, but nice to know we are making the best use of the expensive kit.

[John R]

The unit left behind at Bristol could turn round and form a working back to London.

Currently units work ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) from Bristol out to Weston and Taunton early in the morning, and similarly back late at night, so the position will be similar, albeit to a different depot a few miles north.

One other thing I noticed on the north somerset services is an hourly gap in the morning, with no service in the place of the current arrival into Temple Meads just before 8am. This is the busiest service, with fairly high seat occupancy in standard class, so I suspect the timetable has been developed on paper with little thought as to actual traffic flows.

[Southern Stag]

Seems the Swansea - London services are non stopping between Newport & Reading.

Which leaves Swindon (and connections into Swindon) to Cardiff as hourly, verses half hourly currently. 

In reality London-Cardiff becomes hourly as well because the service is no longer a regular half-hourly service but two services at uneven intervals with uneven journey times. 2tph off peak London-Bristol TM^▸ (Train Manager, or possibly Ticket Machine, depending on context) calling only at Bristol Parkway seems a little excessive as well, can't see many people using those at off peak times.