Intercity Express Programme (IEP) - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[The SprinterMeister]

If anything the GRP driving cabs are probably the weakest point now.

Wasn't there talk of some work on a new cab being designed after 43041 hit a tree, near enough destroying the cab?.

I have seen a link somewhere to a new GRP driving cab design with steel pillars / frame in it intended for a class 43 but as yet there is no sign of it appearing on the class 43 fleet. I guess this depends now on who gets the GW^▸ (Great Western) franchise which will have bearing on what is used on the non-IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) services in the new GW franchise. I understand First intend to use a more heavily updated / refurbished HST^▸ (High Speed Train) on these trains, possibly extended to 2+9. Other operators may inflict Voyagers or Meridians on these trains which would involve higher diesel fuel consumption and reductions in seating capacity.

Southern Stag mentioned about coach A on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HST sets where the toilet was removed to be used as a trolley store. Didn't FGW say they were going to put that toilet back once it was decided to discontinue at seat trolley service in Std?

I have seen one Coach A with the toilet reinstated but that's it. The new Coach Es, converted from buffet carriages, only have one toilet, the other area being used for extra luggage space.

The 425xx trailers standards are converted from buffet cars. These coaches do not have support frames or access hatch in the roof for a toilet water header tank at the former 'counter' end of the coach so fitting the second toilet is more difficult to do. Cutting holes in MK3 coach roofs is only for the very skilled and very brave.


I have encountered one First class 'coach H' trailer with the power car end toilet reinstated as well. Contray to the view held by others regarding Chiltern Trains and their comparatively short runs from Marylebone to Birmingham I believe the toilet provision should not be reduced below current levels on the longer distance services down to Penzance etc.  It may however be necessary to provide more disabled style toilets in which case the toilet will be at one end of the coach and the saloon extended into the toilet area at the other end of the coach a la Cross Country which will involve a fait bit of redesign of the internal layout. At which point it becomes easier to fit the larger power operated doors.

[The SprinterMeister]

I've never had to queue excessively long for loos on Chiltern or other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) with one toilet or LESS per coach.

Marlyebone to Birmingham isn't quite as far as Paddington to Penzance though is it?
 

[JayMac]

If anything the GRP driving cabs are probably the weakest point now.

Would GRP be Glass Reinforced Plastic perchance? aka fibreglass.

[Southern Stag]

I have encountered one First class 'coach H' trailer with the power car end toilet reinstated as well.

Isn't the ex-toilet in Coach H actually used for other purposes though, unlike the ex-toilet in Coach A. Train Managers seem to be able to use it to make PA^▸ (Public Address) announcements and to contact the driver. Mainly used on the sets with the micro-buffets.

[Btline]

Yes, but just because London to Penzance is longer, it doesn't mean there is a double need for loos.
Chiltern also have fewer seats per coach.

One per coach is still enough in my opinion. Esp with an indicator in the coach so you can see if it's occupied. Until I see queues on Virgin/XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise))/Chiltern I'll won't change my mind.

[Southern Stag]

With one coach per toilet I fear that the toilets are going to run out of water on Penzance services. It's not that unusual currently to find a toilet out of water in Cornwall but there are plenty of the train to choose from.

[TonyK]

I fear the worst, with more of this sort of thing....

[broadgage]

I think that one toilet per coach would just suffice provided that it was reliable and had ample flushing water and waste retention capacity.
It should be possible to reuse the only slightly dirty water from the hand wash basin for toilet flushing thereby reducing the total amount needed.

Another alternative would be 2 toilets, next to each other, and useing the same double size water tank.This being in alternate coaches only, so it is still one per coach average.
This should be cheaper, and also has the merit that if one toilet breaks, the whole of the water supply is available for the functioning one which should not run out despite the extra use.

[grahame]

With one coach per toilet I fear that the toilets are going to run out of water on Penzance services. It's not that unusual currently to find a toilet out of water in Cornwall but there are plenty of the train to choose from.

I didn't think that IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) units were intended to run the Devon and Cornwall services, so is there a need to provide toilets that will cope with a 5 hour 45  minute run?

[The SprinterMeister]

Yes, but just because London to Penzance is longer, it doesn't mean there is a double need for loos.
Chiltern also have fewer seats per coach.

One per coach is still enough in my opinion. Esp with an indicator in the coach so you can see if it's occupied. Until I see queues on Virgin/XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise))/Chiltern I'll won't change my mind.

No, not enough provision unless the toliets that remain are 100% reliable and have ample water / waste storage. There are issues as it is with the TGS (coach 'A') having had its toilet removed and passengers making their way to the country end toilet on Coach 'B' which then runs out of water somewhere near Truro.

[The SprinterMeister]

I have encountered one First class 'coach H' trailer with the power car end toilet reinstated as well.

Isn't the ex-toilet in Coach H actually used for other purposes though, unlike the ex-toilet in Coach A. Train Managers seem to be able to use it to make PA^▸ (Public Address) announcements and to contact the driver. Mainly used on the sets with the micro-buffets.

Normally this is the case. However this coach had a fully functioning toilet in it where the trolley store should be. And as there were a set of internal end gangway doors this appears to have been either some sort of coach 'H' retrofit or someone had refitted the gangway doors to a coach 'G' and marshalled it in the Coach 'H' position in the train.

[Southern Stag]

With one coach per toilet I fear that the toilets are going to run out of water on Penzance services. It's not that unusual currently to find a toilet out of water in Cornwall but there are plenty of the train to choose from.

I didn't think that IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) units were intended to run the Devon and Cornwall services, so is there a need to provide toilets that will cope with a 5 hour 45  minute run?

That's true, but I believe we're talking about a potential reduction in toilet provisions as a result of fitting plug doors to MK3s, which probably will be providing services to Devon and Cornwall.

[JayMac]

Could the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) sets not be extended to 2+9 when the stock becomes available after IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) introduction?

That would address capacity on South West services and provide an additional toilet.

What about 2+10?

[bobm]

Could 2+9 or 2+10 climb Rattery Bank after a standing start from Totnes?  I know the 2+9s used on the Summer Newquay services do - but they are not booked to call at Totnes.

[Southern Stag]

With 2+10 you are going to have problems with platform lengths at Paddington, 2+9 is fine in most platforms. Would uprating the MTUs^▸ (Motor Traction Unit) be an option if extra power was needed, they are currently limited to a power output way below the maximum they can give out I believe.