Intercity Express Programme (IEP) - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

When BTLine mentioned "DVT^‡(resolve)" my mind immediately thought he was referring to "Deep Vein Thrombosis", one of the medical conditions you can get from sitting in squeezed up seats on public transport, usually thought of as applying to aircraft but also to trains. I did not evben think that "DVT" meant Driving Van Trailers".
Perhaps we could be clearer when using abreviations that could have different meanings such as David Cameron's use of "LOL^▸ (laughing out loud)".

Having checked, DVT is listed on this forum's 'Acronyms/Abbreviations' page. A handy reference when an abbreviation turns up in a thread that you are not sure of. By no means a complete list of railway terminology, which is why it's always best to include the full name of an acronym or abbreviation at least once in a post. If you use or come across one of these and it isn't listed, by all means Let the Mod/Admin team know and well add it to the list. Railway related ones only please! We won't be adding "LOL" to the list.... at least not until the Open Access rail service; "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch, Oswestry and London" gets off the ground! 

[broadgage]

I think Broadgage was taking the Michael but sadly a little too subtle I think!!!

Yes, driving van trailers=good
Deep vein thrombosis =bad

[Btline]

I meant the deep vein thrombosis but agree that driving van trailers would be good.
Chilterns refub is only what fgw should have done in the first place.

[The SprinterMeister]

Chilterns refub is only what fgw should have done in the first place.

I believe the original intention was that we would have been further down the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) road (or at least some sort of HST^▸ (High Speed Train) replacement) than we are currently and the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HST refurbishment was done with this view in mind.

Chiltern have refurbished their Mk3's for a further 15 / 20 years use hence the greater scope of the modifications. I understand some of the toliets have had to come out to make way for the power operated doors, which may not neccessarily be a good thing.

[Ollie]

Couple of IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) related jobs at FGW^▸ (First Great Western) going if anyone interested:

https://firstgroup.hua.hrsmart.com/ats/js_job_details.php?reqid=5888 - IEP Service Delivery Project Manager
https://firstgroup.hua.hrsmart.com/ats/js_job_details.php?reqid=5886 - Project Interface Manager (IEP and Electrification)

[Southern Stag]

Chiltern have refurbished their Mk3's for a further 15 / 20 years use hence the greater scope of the modifications. I understand some of the toliets have had to come out to make way for the power operated doors, which may not neccessarily be a good thing.

Chiltern have removed most of the toilets, and all of the luggage racks. They can't remain in their current position because the plug doors are larger and the toilets and luggage racks are in the way. Chiltern have fitted some toilets where a bay of seats used to be. Fitting plug doors means you lose luggage space, toilets or seats. If plug doors were fitted to MK3s being used on longer distance services presumably more seats would be removed in favour of more luggage space and toilets. Chiltern have also removed the doors separating the vestibules and saloon area, which wouldn't be ideal for a long distance train.

[JayMac]

And importantly, Chiltern aren't using locos that are nearly 40 years old.

[The SprinterMeister]

And importantly, Chiltern aren't using locos that are nearly 40 years old.

In fairness the power car structural parts would probably last indefinitely if the will to do so was there. One of the pluses which was lost with the MTU^▸ (Motor Traction Unit) repower project was the fact that the engine tended to coat the insides and engine room floor with 'preservatives'. If anything the GRP driving cabs are probably the weakest point now.

[Btline]

Chiltern Railway's multi million pound refurbishment has included installing automatic doors between coaches, which cuts out all the noise. There is no need for vestibule doors, as the new exterior doors keep out the noise and there are no openable windows. This also prevents doors slamming onto commuters as they queue with their luggage to alight.

There is no need for 2 toilets per carriage - that's overkill. Chiltern have removed one to allow for these improvements.

Some seats have been removed, but an extra carriage has been added, so there are loads more seats for the ballooning number of commuters. of course, all the seats are very comfortable, with fixed soft leather armrests and a low seat back to enable good views all around.

Some luggage racks have gone, but cases can be slid between rows of seats, thanks to Chiltern's excellent layout of all tables. The overhead racks also take a lot more than most modern trains.

[Andy W]

And importantly, Chiltern aren't using locos that are nearly 40 years old.

But how much of the class 43s are 40 years old? New engines etc.

Even if they are too old then I don't see why the locos aren't replaced and the coaches brought up to standard which has to be a more cost effective option.

Nor can I really see why they can't be upgraded to bi-modal with the existing diesels plus overhead supply. There was a trial with a battery coach but given that there will now be overhead cables then the batteries are no longer required. This would be an ideal solution for the Cotswolds.

[TonyK]

Couple of IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) related jobs at FGW^▸ (First Great Western) going if anyone interested:

https://firstgroup.hua.hrsmart.com/ats/js_job_details.php?reqid=5888 - IEP Service Delivery Project Manager
https://firstgroup.hua.hrsmart.com/ats/js_job_details.php?reqid=5886 - Project Interface Manager (IEP and Electrification)

Damn! They want someone who knows what he's doing. That's me out, then.

[Southern Stag]

If anything the GRP driving cabs are probably the weakest point now.

Wasn't there talk of some work on a new cab being designed after 43041 hit a tree, near enough destroying the cab?

Chiltern Railway's multi million pound refurbishment has included installing automatic doors between coaches, which cuts out all the noise. There is no need for vestibule doors, as the new exterior doors keep out the noise and there are no openable windows. This also prevents doors slamming onto commuters as they queue with their luggage to alight.

Class 170s have automatic doors between carriages, yet people still moan because there is nothing separating the doors and seating areas. I haven't been on one the Chiltern MK3s but there is the potential of noise from the exterior doors and when stopped at stations in the winter all the lovely cold air will be coming in the train.

There is no need for 2 toilets per carriage - that's overkill. Chiltern have removed one to allow for these improvements.

Chiltern have removed more than half the toilets, only around half the carriages have toilets now. Three rather than 9 per train. I disagree that two toilets per carriage is an overkill on long distance services. Travel in Carriage A on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) where there is only one toilet in the nearest vestibule and you often have to wait. And the more toilets you have the less chance of them all running out of water, already something the happens quite often on London-Penzance services.

Some luggage racks have gone, but cases can be slid between rows of seats, thanks to Chiltern's excellent layout of all tables. The overhead racks also take a lot more than most modern trains.

In the pictures I've seen I haven't seen any luggage racks left. And it's the luggage racks which are the best at holding the increasingly bigger cases around nowadays. The Chiltern seating layout is never going to be found in FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s MK3s, so they are going to need luggage racks. And on the Summer services to Cornwall the luggage provision on MK3s is already inadequate.

[Timmer]

There is no need for 2 toilets per carriage - that's overkill.

Not on long distance IC^▸ (Inter City) services it isn't. Something BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) started when they bought out the MK4 with only 1 toilet per carriage and is more than welcome by the bean counting TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) when they have introduced new trains over the last few years as less toilets to maintain saves money.

Southern Stag mentioned about coach A on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HST^▸ (High Speed Train) sets where the toilet was removed to be used as a trolley store. Didn't FGW say they were going to put that toilet back once it was decided to discontinue at seat trolley service in Std?

Looking at the plans for the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) sets, the amount of toilets per train isn't too bad but they aren't distributed throughout the train very evenly with quite a trek to get to some of them depending in which carriage you are sitting in. I'm sure that will change once the TOCs provide Agility with their specifications hopefully not for less toilets!

[Btline]

I've never had to queue excessively long for loos on Chiltern or other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) with one toilet or LESS per coach.
You're average passenger may go once on a 3 hour journey or not at all.
People on shorter journeys may have to go but more likely not.

Then again, after using 150s/166s for so long you get used to going before you leave for the station.

[Southern Stag]

Southern Stag mentioned about coach A on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HST^▸ (High Speed Train) sets where the toilet was removed to be used as a trolley store. Didn't FGW say they were going to put that toilet back once it was decided to discontinue at seat trolley service in Std?

I have seen one Coach A with the toilet reinstated but that's it. The new Coach Es, converted from buffet carriages, only have one toilet, the other area being used for extra luggage space.