Intercity Express Programme: Invitation To Tender

[whole diary]

[smokey]

Scenario:

Bristol Portion joins with Swansea Portion atb Swindon.

Swansea arrives first (powercar on rear) Then the Bristol portion arrives (power car front) this meaning both PCs are in the middle.

Not likely to happen as Spliting is only likely at Cardiff shorter train to Swansea and further West,
Exeter, Portions for Torbay and Plymouth.
Plymouth, Short portion on into Cornwall or Portions for Penzance and Newquay.

[eightf48544]

March Modern Railways page 6.

"Alstrom pulls IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) Bid"

Also in this issue Captain Deltic tries to analyse what new trains, additional carriages, might be coming to a line near you sometime (don't hold your breath) in the future.

As far as I can see apart from 52 or 54 IEP Diesel varient. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) is down for a cascade from the West Midlands of an unknown number of 150s for the Bristol area.

Also a new DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) for London, Number and date unknown.

[Lee]

March Modern Railways page 6.

"Alstrom pulls IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) Bid"

Also in this issue Captain Deltic tries to analyse what new trains, additional carriages, might be coming to a line near you sometime (don't hold your breath) in the future.

As far as I can see apart from 52 or 54 IEP Diesel varient. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) is down for a cascade from the West Midlands of an unknown number of 150s for the Bristol area.

Also a new DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) for London, Number and date unknown.

A couple of relevant links.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1583.msg10354#msg10354

http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2008/02/alstom_withdraws_from_iep.html#more

[Timmer]

Whats been one of the most successful trains of all time, is still going strong and in huge demand?

The HST^▸ (High Speed Train) of course.

So why not build a Mk5 coach that conforms to all design requirements that are in place with an electric loco/DVT^‡(resolve) for electrified lines and diesel locos at both ends for non-electrified lines. MTU^▸ (Motor Traction Unit) have come up with an engine thats now operating in most HSTs. It may not meet all the specifications that DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) have put down but could be worked on to meet them.

Why try and re-invent the wheel when the success of HSTs have shown what can be done? Just bring the concept and design into modern day standards.

At this rate I can see the HSTs going way past their 40th birthday and still be in front line service. Who knows maybe even 50 years on some lines and I would still be more than happy to use them!

[Btline]

Whats been one of the most successful trains of all time, is still going strong and in huge demand?

The HST^▸ (High Speed Train) of course.

So why not build a Mk5 coach that conforms to all design requirements that are in place with an electric loco/DVT^‡(resolve) for electrified lines and diesel locos at both ends for non-electrified lines. MTU^▸ (Motor Traction Unit) have come up with an engine thats now operating in most HSTs. It may not meet all the specifications that DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) have put down but could be worked on to meet them.

Why try and re-invent the wheel when the success of HSTs have shown what can be done? Just bring the concept and design into modern day standards.

At this rate I can see the HSTs going way past their 40th birthday and still be in front line service. Who knows maybe even 50 years on some lines and I would still be more than happy to use them!

Exactly what I think. Take the smoothness and ride of the Mk3 and the plug doors and tilting compatibility of the Mk4, add tilting, add compatibility with diesel and electric locos, and you're there! Mk5!!

[eightf48544]

BTline has got it right I quote (sorry can't seem to work quote)  "Take the smoothness and ride of the Mk3 and the plug doors and tilting compatibility of the Mk4, add tilting, add compatibility with diesel and electric locos, and you're there! Mk5!!"

I would just add within what ever the current loading gauge is, with disable facilities and as strong as possible.  There you have the specification. I sure the rolling stock manufactures could come up with some cracking coaches.

However it's too simple everything has to specified down to the last mm. Look at the fuss on the Junipers about the visual displays being a couple mm too small.

[Btline]

However it's too simple everything has to specified down to the last mm. Look at the fuss on the Junipers about the visual displays being a couple mm too small.

Don't get me started!! Pathetic bureaucracy!! Just rip out the displays from the 180s and pritt-stick them in!!!

Sorry new verb: "to Pritt stick" to slap something in on the cheap, quickly.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Hmmm ... to "slap something in on the cheap, quickly," eh?

For the benefit of those who haven't seen it, Economy Klaus offered a definition of another new verb: 'to Adelante', as in: "to drastically reduce in size and cram full of things"!  See http://firstlatewestern.blogspot.com/2008/02/youve-been-adelanted.html

 

[smokey]

BTline has got it right I quote (sorry can't seem to work quote)  "Take the smoothness and ride of the Mk3 and the plug doors and tilting compatibility of the Mk4, add tilting, add compatibility with diesel and electric locos, and you're there! Mk5!!"

I would just add within what ever the current loading gauge is, with disable facilities and as strong as possible.  There you have the specification. I sure the rolling stock manufactures could come up with some cracking coaches.

However it's too simple everything has to specified down to the last mm. Look at the fuss on the Junipers about the visual displays being a couple mm too small.


IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) the Juniper Visual Display were a couple of mm to small because of some of the "disabled persons" legislation,
However the manufacturer of the displays should have known this.

[swlines]

smokey, when the 458s were built the Disability Discrimination Act (Railways) wasn't even finalised and the "preparatory" spec wasn't required to be followed. This year, DDA^» (Disability Discrimination Act - about)(R) is no longer used and we will follow RVAR instead (Rail Vehicle Accessability Regulations).

[eightf48544]

If one also reads:

Poll: Which stock is the best for local/stopping/commuter travel?  ^ 1 2 ^ in Across the West

Then there appears to be a some slight concensus forming about what type of train is best for these different services. Loco and coaches (DVT^‡(resolve)) for Express services and for local stopping and commuter travel some form of 2/3/4 car unit capable of running coupled together to forma longer trin to meet peak demand.  Most people don't seem to like underfloor engines as per Adelantes and Voyagers for longer journeys.

However, the problem seems to be that becuse of the relativly small size of the British Ilses and the dense nature of settlement leading to short distances between station particulalry  in teh FGW^▸ (First Great Western) area we probsly need at least 5 types of train. Rather than 2.

1. Express stops at least 30 -60 minutes apart for most of journey.
2. Interurban stops say under 30 to 15 minutes apart.
3. Local stoppping stops say under 15 minutes apart maximum seats.
4. Outer Commuter services heavy demand in peak stops less than 10 minutes apart for outer part of run, may run fast for up to 30 minutes to allow standing. e.g Reading London non stop.
5 Inner Commuter stops 5 minutes apart, <40 minute overall run less seats maximum standing room.

This breakdown is arbitary but illustrates the conflicting uses a particlar type of train my need to work during the day. Hence 153s runnign on the main line and HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) on the Padd Oxfords which are really an Outer Commuter service.

The problem is that FGW runs all these types of services on the same route. Also trains may perform 2 or more functions in a single jourmey e.g an afternoon Padd Penzance HST will be providing an Intercity service to Plymouth arriving in afternoon peak, then it will then provide an Outer Commuter service West from Plymouth and a local stopping service in Cornwall. Which just goes to show how versitle the HSTs really are.

Perhaps you can get way with just 3 types an Express intercity preferably loco and coaches (splittable).

2 Interurban, Outer Commuter, maybe fixed formation (unit) with powercar and DVT with seats a bit like the Thumpers and the DE units (201s) that ran London to Reading in the 80s.

3 Local stopping and Inner Commuter.Underfloor engine. Same unit with different seating patterns. Although whether any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) would be able to keep them on the right routes would be open to question. You wouldn't want a London Commuter unit turning up on a Penzance Plymouth stopper and vice versa.

[Btline]

If one also reads:

Poll: Which stock is the best for local/stopping/commuter travel?  ^ 1 2 ^ in Across the West

Then there appears to be a some slight concensus forming about what type of train is best for these different services. Loco and coaches (DVT^‡(resolve)) for Express services and for local stopping and commuter travel some form of 2/3/4 car unit capable of running coupled together to forma longer trin to meet peak demand.  Most people don't seem to like underfloor engines as per Adelantes and Voyagers for longer journeys.

However, the problem seems to be that becuse of the relativly small size of the British Ilses and the dense nature of settlement leading to short distances between station particulalry  in teh FGW^▸ (First Great Western) area we probsly need at least 5 types of train. Rather than 2.

1. Express stops at least 30 -60 minutes apart for most of journey.
2. Interurban stops say under 30 to 15 minutes apart.
3. Local stoppping stops say under 15 minutes apart maximum seats.
4. Outer Commuter services heavy demand in peak stops less than 10 minutes apart for outer part of run, may run fast for up to 30 minutes to allow standing. e.g Reading London non stop.
5 Inner Commuter stops 5 minutes apart, <40 minute overall run less seats maximum standing room.

This breakdown is arbitary but illustrates the conflicting uses a particlar type of train my need to work during the day. Hence 153s runnign on the main line and HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) on the Padd Oxfords which are really an Outer Commuter service.

The problem is that FGW runs all these types of services on the same route. Also trains may perform 2 or more functions in a single jourmey e.g an afternoon Padd Penzance HST will be providing an Intercity service to Plymouth arriving in afternoon peak, then it will then provide an Outer Commuter service West from Plymouth and a local stopping service in Cornwall. Which just goes to show how versitle the HSTs really are.

Perhaps you can get way with just 3 types an Express intercity preferably loco and coaches (splittable).

2 Interurban, Outer Commuter, maybe fixed formation (unit) with powercar and DVT with seats a bit like the Thumpers and the DE units (201s) that ran London to Reading in the 80s.

3 Local stopping and Inner Commuter.Underfloor engine. Same unit with different seating patterns. Although whether any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) would be able to keep them on the right routes would be open to question. You wouldn't want a London Commuter unit turning up on a Penzance Plymouth stopper and vice versa.

Interesting.

It can be definitely said though, that the Mk3 refurbs are trying to be InterCity AND Commuter inside, while they also provide local services elsewhere. Maybe FGW should not be mixing the two types of services together?

[Lee]

The Train Technical Specification sets out the essential requirements for the IE trains. Per Section 4.2.1 of the ITT^▸ (Invitation to Tender), DfT may accept a Bidder^s technical solution which varies from these essential requirements. ^ITT Appendix C: Added Value Monetary Values^ sets out the monetary values for the adjustments to the bid price for each of the Core Routes and Priced Options. This document gives the Bidders sufficient information to enable them to optimise Value for Money between alternative designs.

See link below.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/iep/iepinvitationtotender/ittappendixc.pdf

[Lee]

DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) update on the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) short listed bidders (link below.)
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/iep/changetoiep

The tender return date for the Intercity Express Programme is midday, Monday 30 June 2008.

[Lee]

The InterCity Express Programme has spent ^9.4m on consultancy fees since 2005 (link below.)
http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/2008/07/worth-wait.html