Intercity Express Programme: Invitation To Tender

[whole diary]

[devon_metro]

I don't support splitting trains, it will only be like a voyager with not enough coaches (chaos when the other half booked for the working is broken etc) and meaning two buffets, and generally more staff. I'd recommend (if it had to be a DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) ) a 9 car train.

DMS^▸ (Driving Motor Standard ) + MS + MS + MS + MS + MS + TRFB^▸ (Trailer Restaurant First Buffet (Mark 3 coach type)) + MF^▸ ((in timetables) Monday to Friday) + DMF

DMS = Driving Motor Standard
MS = Motor Standard
TRFB = Trailer Rest First Buffet
MF = Motor First
DMF = Driving motor first

;Allowing quick acceleration so could race around Cornwall and faster journey times, also I don't think tilt is worth the effort!!

[Btline]

I don't support splitting trains, it will only be like a voyager with not enough coaches (chaos when the other half booked for the working is broken etc) and meaning two buffets, and generally more staff. I'd recommend (if it had to be a DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) ) a 9 car train.

DMS^▸ (Driving Motor Standard ) + MS + MS + MS + MS + MS + TRFB^▸ (Trailer Restaurant First Buffet (Mark 3 coach type)) + MF^▸ ((in timetables) Monday to Friday) + DMF

DMS = Driving Motor Standard
MS = Motor Standard
TRFB = Trailer Rest First Buffet
MF = Motor First
DMF = Driving motor first

;Allowing quick acceleration so could race around Cornwall and faster journey times, also I don't think tilt is worth the effort!!

I have to say that splitting trains sounds like bad news to me!

I don't want an engine under my seat (on a long distance trip). Your proposal would be great for former Adelante routes, but not for the "proper" HST^▸ (High Speed Train) services.

The problem with Virgin Voyagers is not just "not enough seats," but the fact that they are cramped, noisy and are bad travelling environment (not to mention the uncomfortable seats, and the evil doors that close on you).

Tilting will allow journey time reductions on parts of the network where there are a lot of bends (i.e. the whole UK^▸ (United Kingdom) network West of the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line)). It must be looked into. Look at the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line)- London to B'ham could be down to 1hr 10 mins soon!

[eightf48544]

Agree that splitting two units without through corridor connections is bad news. howerer I see no reason why they're can't be cab end corridor connections. The Wessex units had them as do the Desiros. So instead of 9 car units you could have a 5 with Buffet and 4 without. splitting on route. E.g 9 to Cardiff then 5 to Swansea with 4 left at Cardiff to come back with next Swansea Padd.

This was the way the Weymouth service used to work before electrification even. Trains like the royal Wessex split at Bournemouth Central front 4/5 going on to Weymouth and reamaining coaches with dining car going round to Bournemouth West with any loco Bournemouth shed could lay it's hands on. The same in the Up. Except that the Bournemouth West portion got pulled back into a siding right by the loco shed ideal in my trainspotting days.

This carried on with the REPs pushing a couple of TC^‡(resolve) sets to Bournemouth and a 33 picking up 1 or 2 TC sets onto Weymouth. The same in the reverse the 33 pushing the Weymouth onto the REP in Bourmouth Central station.

Question, at how many stations did SR^‡(resolve) regualarly split/join EMUS? I can think of at least 5. In some cases it was 4 tph 2 split 2 join.

Why are "THEY" so opposed to it. Have you ever watched DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) ICE 2s joining at Hamm or Hanover? The first unit waits in the platform passenger doors open, coupler box open the second unit rolls down the platform opening it's coupler cover and gently couples up. You only feel a hardly disernable movement if you are in the last/first coach of joining units.

Are DB drivers more skilful?

[smokey]

A few points on IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)

Lets hope we end up with a engine and coaches operation, No under floor engines, with all the noise and viabrations, also cheaper as when engine is out for maintenance the carriages are still out earning there keep.

There's no reason not to have a split option, plans were drawn up to make the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) splitable with Driving trailers in the middle, there were Inter-City DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)'s that were 6 car sets with normal full width driving cabs at the outer ends but gangway cabs in the middle so the unit could be split.

I don't like the idea of auto couplers that can handle traction power thats asking for trouble big time.
Whilst auto couplers can handle control air and electrics (low current low power) to ask couplers to handle a 1000amps at a 1000 volts or even more thats just not an option it's more like a fire hazard as with high power transfer the contacts MUST remain clean or localised hot spots occur.

Detachable power cars are also a must, so that a Diesel one can be exchanged for an Electric one quickly and vice versa.

Tilting well it's an option but with all the extra weight is it worth it?

[John R]

But the drawn up plans you refer to never came to anything as it was deemed operationally impractical. 

[Btline]

I like smokey's splitting idea.

Have 2 power cars and 8 carriages, but the middle 2 are DVTs^‡(resolve) (with passenger seating and corridor connexions). At Swindon (for example) split the train in the middle, and then run 2 services.

Yes, they'll only have one engine each, but they'll have about half the weight, so it should not matter.

But here's the good bit!

Between Padd and Swindon- full length platforms at InterCity stops. After Swidon- lots of shorter platform.

But these split trains will only be 5 vehicles in length (1 power car, 4 carriages, including passenger DVT).

So no more problems at Kemble and Cornwall stations, etc.

And bikes can go into the relevant power car- it should be platformed at all stations!

No underfloor engines.

No loco turn around.

Swindon - Worcester trains can call at Foregate Street with no problems!

And with tilting, journey times can be cut.

I would imagine:

*Hourly to Exeter. SPLIT. Hourly to Plymouth (with 2 hourly extension to Penzance or Newquay), and hourly to Torbay.
*Hourly to Swindon. SPLIT. Hourly to Cheltnam (with 2 hourly to Worcester) and hourly to Swansea.
*Half Hourly to Oxford. SPLIT. hourly to Worcester (with 2 hourly to Hereford) and either other half terminates, or goes to Banbury, hourly.

*Bristol/Cardiff trains remain full length and half hourly.

What do people think?

[John R]

Can't see the Swansea service working as a split. Also maybe the West Country split should be at Plymouth, with one half going on to Penzance and the other forming a return working. Now if you did that and introduced tilting units (just for the B&H^▸ (Berks and Hants - railway line from Reading to Taunton via Westbury) line) you could get some meaningful time savings to Plymouth, and improve the number of through services to Penzance.

 

[Btline]

But splitting the West Country unit at Exeter would mean more direct London trains for Torbay (and Dawlish etc where the Torbay trains would also call), and less SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) at Totness and Ivybridge.

What's wrong with splitting the Swansea service? It would save SDO at Neath etc.

[John R]

 I would have thought that 5 cars would be inadequate for a westbound service still to call at Bristol Parkway, Newport and Cardiff. Though I'll admit it's a service I rarely have cause to use.

[Btline]

But remember that the Cardiff Central service would take some of these passengers, and this service would remain half hourly/hourly, as a full length train.

[devon_metro]

I don't think splitting is good, not only does it take time, but it means anybody going to Swansea must cram into the front portion and what if half a set is waiting for a delayed half set at Swindon?

It will all fall apart and you can't anticipate the loadings so therefore its always best to provide as many carriages as possible.

Tilting DVTs^‡(resolve) are unlikely to suffice too due to their generally light weight and structural weakness.

I still think SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) is the best thing and with common sence it can be used efficiently.

[smokey]

But the drawn up plans you refer to never came to anything as it was deemed operationally impractical. 

2 problems killed the Split HST^▸ (High Speed Train) Idea,

First spending vast amounts on what was considered "LIFE EXPIRED" stock.
The operational problem when Both halves of a unit were the same way round when being put together, thus a Power car would be in the Middle.

Both units the wrong way round wasn't such an Issue as at Bristol TM^‡(resolve), Cardiff Central, Exeter SD or Plymouth One half could be run round, after detraining passengers.

[Btline]

First spending vast amounts on what was considered "LIFE EXPIRED" stock.

Hmmmm.......

The operational problem when Both halves of a unit were the same way round when being put together, thus a Power car would be in the Middle.

When/how would this ever happen?

[devon_metro]

Scenario:

Bristol Portion joins with Swansea Portion atb Swindon.

Swansea arrives first (powercar on rear) Then the Bristol portion arrives (power car front) this meaning both PCs are in the middle.

[smokey]

First spending vast amounts on what was considered "LIFE EXPIRED" stock.

Hmmmm.......

The operational problem when Both halves of a unit were the same way round when being put together, thus a Power car would be in the Middle.

When/how would this ever happen?

Yes I know this Life expired stock is having big bucks spent on it and it's still going....

Both halves the same way round, Operational problems would cause this is happen on odd occasions.